Was the Holocaust... a lie?
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11-03-2012, 07:59 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
I'm gonna leave this here http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#v

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11-03-2012, 08:42 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 07:00 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(11-03-2012 06:50 AM)Dom Wrote:  Just travel to germany and talk to the baby boomers there and find out for yourself what things were like. And actually there are still a lot of people alive who were there. I have an aunt still who was there. People in their 80s and up all lived through it and were old enough to pay proper attention and remember every bit of it - you don't forget something like that.

Gas chambers or not, a huge part of the population, jewish, polish, czech, german and others, disappeared and never came back. I am flabberghasted that you could belive the dribble of people who believe a madman was like god.

This thread is making me sick!

Dom seriously? I am asking for Physical evidence I am not going to go around asking people what it was like. Okay? That's like me asking Christians about their god and accepting it as true, because they told me.

Again without the Gas Chambers there is no holocaust. I'll agree with you that a lot of Jews never came back. They can be found in the state of Israel. As for being flabbergasted, I don't even believe in a god.

This thread is making you sick? So just because we consider things 'sensitive' we should never ever question them? Pardon me but I believe the more sensitive something is the more seriously we should question it. So we don't get it wrong. Allowing your emotions to get the better of you will only lead you to accepting things which are not true.

If the Jews are all in Israel (the population isn't big enough) then what happened to all the Polish, Czech and Germans?

The nazis liked to raid houses in the middle of the night and take away all occupants. Jews were on the list, Germans who spoke up , Germans who could not prove their ancestry (yes, everyone had to produce a family tree) , whole hospital and mental institutions full of people, they all disappeared nto thin air.

Asking christians about god is not at all like asking eye witnesses about what they saw with their own two eyes.

And yes, it makes me sick. It was a horrific time for all of the nations involved, and all of the individuals involved, and it ended up having an incredible impact on many nations for decades to come.

And Hitler did think he was god, and he had a cult following and managed to do so much damage.

And still, he has a cult following. That does make me sick!

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11-03-2012, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2012 09:31 AM by TheArcticSage.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 07:01 AM)Sol Wrote:  
(11-03-2012 06:19 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  Good gods as if I can even find them. Easy to find my ass.


FFS........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchter_report

Now, before you go all fucking Mel Gibson on me again. THIS IS ON WIKI, please go to the references at the bottom, and read through all of them. This will TAKE you to balanced information which will give you an informed opinion....this is called RESEARCH.

This is your STARTING POINT, do not come back with "the wiki page is wrong". Read the references.........

BTW.....what is wrong with the name Sol ?
Not too jewish for you is it ?
How about I change it to Saul or Jacob or Aaron what do you think ?

(and I use the word think in the loosest possible sense)

I did not ask for the Leuchter report, I was asking for the investigations you said took place in 1994 I wanted that. To compare with other investigations. I don't know when I started reading those articles that were in the reference, but I did finally get done with them, all of them (except ones from the revisionist side as I have already read most of those)

Having done this I came across some interesting things, the supposed gas chambers under the crematoriums in Auschwitz or where ever were likely not gas chambers but morgues, in which case morgues would likely have been more fumigated than other places seeing as how if people did die of typhus they would have been contagious and thus where you stock pile the bodies it becomes essential that you fumigate the place in order to help prevent the spread of the disease.

Another thing why the hell would you have a gas chamber under a crematorium? It seems far more likely that bodies would be stored so close, than machines of death. Also that bodies would be stored underground instead of above ground in order to keep them cooler until they could be cremated.

i also noticed something else and that is an account where an 'eye witness' testimony says that they poured six kilograms of Zyklon B into the gas chamber and according to you this happened quite often. Now pardon me for saying this but wouldn't so much cyanide over such a long period of extensive use undoubtedly leave substantial evidence and would be seriously higher than the trace amounts found? which are only a bit higher than the residues found on other places fumigated (which only suggests a slightly more often fumigated area)... I mean that is 6 Kilos in a one time use.

Further more when I looked into the article about Prussian Blues, I noticed that they mentioned that there were prussian blues that were found on 'homicidal' gas chambers as well. However they failed to mention how prussian blues got on the outside which contradicts the Zundel trial about the cyanide only being traceable on the surface area of the walls which I'll be honest I don't remember how much but I think it was something around 0.1 inches. Now for the delousing chamber found at auschwitz there was a perfectly reasonable explanation for how this happened and that is that bed mattresses once deloused would be beaten to get rid of any extra cyanide on them, the result you see on the outside of the building as well on the inside. Taking that into account alone would it not suggest this 'homicidal' gas chamber was not used for murder but was actually just another delousing chamber?

Another thing that caught my eye was the supposed amount of people who were being killed as well as the quite generous amount of people the crematoriums would have been able to dispose of.

If you researched into crematoriums you would know that it takes a few hours 2-3 for a Modern Crematorium to fully turn the body into ash (which there are then bones which must be crushed down) and a intermission period where the Crematorium needs to cool. Believe it or not but there are advances in fields of society you would not expect, That was for a modern crematorium now think about an antique crematorium like those used at the concentration camps. They can not be operational 24/7 without suffering seriously damaging themselves. (I regress they are made of brick if you've bothered to look at the pictures) also each furnace would only be capable of handling 1 body at a time or 2 if it was a dual furnace but if you stuff more than one body at a time in there (which is an account of eye witnesses) then it would most likely take more time to cremate both bodies, if not there would still be more ashes to clean out.

Now then I would like the 94 investigations. If it was in one of the references please point out which one it was so I can reread it.

(11-03-2012 07:59 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I'm gonna leave this here http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#v

Already read it.

(11-03-2012 08:42 AM)Dom Wrote:  If the Jews are all in Israel (the population isn't big enough) then what happened to all the Polish, Czech and Germans?

The nazis liked to raid houses in the middle of the night and take away all occupants. Jews were on the list, Germans who spoke up , Germans who could not prove their ancestry (yes, everyone had to produce a family tree) , whole hospital and mental institutions full of people, they all disappeared nto thin air.

Asking christians about god is not at all like asking eye witnesses about what they saw with their own two eyes.

And yes, it makes me sick. It was a horrific time for all of the nations involved, and all of the individuals involved, and it ended up having an incredible impact on many nations for decades to come.

And Hitler did think he was god, and he had a cult following and managed to do so much damage.

And still, he has a cult following. That does make me sick!

If it makes you sick then leave, you are obviously unable to make an unbiased decision either way in your current emotional state you are no good to either side. You're letting your emotions control you and if you want that then by all means go right ahead, but you can not be logical while you're emotional. I mean you certainly aren't picking on the Soviets for the last I checked was 80 million people who they murdered or the chinese, or the North Koreans... all who supposedly did these exact same thing the nazi's were doing (taking away people to murder them according to you) yet from my stand point the nazi's put them in concentration camps and the U.S. did the exact same thing with the Japanese yet you aren't picking on the U.S. for doing that, and you also say the nazi's mass murdered these people but perhaps the U.S. could have mass murdered Japanese people and yet you still don't even look at any side other than the Nazi's.

You're emotions control you therefore you are not being rational, regardless of who's right.
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11-03-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Arctic, please respond:

"Trying to convince a bunch of non-experts is basically evangelism. You're asking me to suspend my critical thinking and adopt a particular position as truth when *I know* that I haven't investigated it properly. I don't give a stuff about actually investigating it myself, there are so many people trying to sell me snake oil, I let the truth of the matter for me be determined by the historians who are the actual experts, so show me a dissenting view from a reputable historian."

I asked you this and you seem to have ignored it.
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11-03-2012, 09:53 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Arcticsage, you have a deep confirmation bias, how on earth can you say those allegedly scientific reports that deny the gas chambers are true and the other that confirms them are false when they're in the same nature, I mean, they don't confirm nor deny the existence of the holocaust.
It was a fucking genocide, in the end it doesn't matter what they killed people with, gas, bullets, letting them catch diseases, starving prisoners, and so on... they didn't want to make the jews and other people go away, they wanted to rule the fucking world, why would the imprison people in concentration camps if it was otherwise? why not just let them leave? why did they imprisoned and killed people who helped jews out of the nazi germnay? why did they made all this propaganda about one race to rule them all?

You are not convinced about gas chambers, ok, whatever! that doesn't make things any better for all the people who died there!! you say nazis gave the jews medicine, why would they do that if they actually stole everything from them? they hated them, they never helped them!!

stop focusing on one allegedly controversial point of the history, watch the big picture, nazis weren't nice people.

OH! but the allies weren't good either, well, of course not! the US nuked japan!! that's wasn't very nice of them either.
But the US didn't got judged or anything, well, of course not! they won and became a too powerful nation to be judge, is that fair? NO, but the fault on one side doesn't takes away the fault on the other side.

Are every jews nice and innocent people? of course not!! but that doesn't make it ok for nazis to kill them!

you say there were less than 6 million, OH ok, so they get to kill a lot of people as long as they're not TOO many, PLEASE!!!

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11-03-2012, 10:47 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2012 10:53 AM by TheArcticSage.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 09:53 AM)nach_in Wrote:  Arcticsage, you have a deep confirmation bias, how on earth can you say those allegedly scientific reports that deny the gas chambers are true and the other that confirms them are false when they're in the same nature, I mean, they don't confirm nor deny the existence of the holocaust.
It was a fucking genocide, in the end it doesn't matter what they killed people with, gas, bullets, letting them catch diseases, starving prisoners, and so on... they didn't want to make the jews and other people go away, they wanted to rule the fucking world, why would the imprison people in concentration camps if it was otherwise? why not just let them leave? why did they imprisoned and killed people who helped jews out of the nazi germnay? why did they made all this propaganda about one race to rule them all?

You are not convinced about gas chambers, ok, whatever! that doesn't make things any better for all the people who died there!! you say nazis gave the jews medicine, why would they do that if they actually stole everything from them? they hated them, they never helped them!!

stop focusing on one allegedly controversial point of the history, watch the big picture, nazis weren't nice people.

OH! but the allies weren't good either, well, of course not! the US nuked japan!! that's wasn't very nice of them either.
But the US didn't got judged or anything, well, of course not! they won and became a too powerful nation to be judge, is that fair? NO, but the fault on one side doesn't takes away the fault on the other side.

Are every jews nice and innocent people? of course not!! but that doesn't make it ok for nazis to kill them!

you say there were less than 6 million, OH ok, so they get to kill a lot of people as long as they're not TOO many, PLEASE!!!

Actually it matters deeply, you see the entire point of the holocaust was the supposed mass murder of Jews specifically by gas. If there is no homicidal gas chambers then there is no holocaust, sure you'll still have war crimes, but no holocaust.

And if by your means of by bullets, or putting them in conditions where they will likely catch diseases, or suffer malnutrition is what you consider a holocaust I would again like to point out the American concentration camps which you seem to never touch up on. Where an untold number of Japanese civilians died due to lack of medical help. When I say an untold number, I mean an untold number. I've done research into it and all I get is 'a number of japanese...' '...died of lack of medical aid'

And to the point of you saying the nazi's did not give jews in concentration camps medical aid is quite 'confirmation biased' the nazi's did try to prevent epidemics in the camps as best they could. There is evidence for this. A lot of it.
Nazi's weren't nice people? Black people are murderers? Jews are thieves?

Confirmation bias, if being a nazi were a race you'd be racist. Some people who are murderers just happen to be black just as some people who are thieves happen to be Jewish however this should not reflect upon them all. So whose being biased here? They didn't steal everything from the Jews, in fact after the war a lot of their goods could still be found in storage in the camps themselves.

I'm not saying there was less than 6 million, I'm saying there wasn't a holocaust... which in turn happens to lead to a lower number of Jews who died in the concentration camps (due mostly to natural causes).

(11-03-2012 09:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  Arctic, please respond:

"Trying to convince a bunch of non-experts is basically evangelism. You're asking me to suspend my critical thinking and adopt a particular position as truth when *I know* that I haven't investigated it properly. I don't give a stuff about actually investigating it myself, there are so many people trying to sell me snake oil, I let the truth of the matter for me be determined by the historians who are the actual experts, so show me a dissenting view from a reputable historian."

I asked you this and you seem to have ignored it.

David Irving



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11-03-2012, 10:48 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 06:19 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  I heard you eternal, I'm not paying attention to that because I already covered it. I am not looking for testimonies, I am looking for physical evidence of the gas chambers. If you claim the science is shakey please provide evidence an article or something which claims that.

Making judgments based on others... so if a group of evolutionists were racist douche bags who called themselves the Evolving Brotherhood I should then therefore not consider Evolution to be a valid argument because it is believed by a bunch of racist douche bags?

As for sun, that's wonderful, great... so he DID know about the death threats. No duress at all then? Who's really using circular logic here man? Me or you? You're going to say that there wasn't any duress involved in his recantation? I would like to see that, because every article I went through (except the one with his recantation) expressed that he was indeed threatened.

I don't think that the evidence upon which it is built is shakey at all, but again I HAVE asked for articles (and even searching for them myself since he is not willing to supply his burden of proof) so if you find anything to prove the tests wrong PLEASE share them with me. If these tests are as good as Sun says they are then it really shouldn't be a problem to share them with me.

Good gods as if I can even find them. Easy to find my ass.

Well done, you managed to completely avoid the only point that I made. You claimed something emphatically about Sol. You were wrong. Now say sorry like a good little TheAssholeStooge (I like this renaming thing, good idea of yours) and we might start to play nicely from here on out.

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11-03-2012, 11:01 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 09:18 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(11-03-2012 07:01 AM)Sol Wrote:  
(11-03-2012 06:19 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  Good gods as if I can even find them. Easy to find my ass.


FFS........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchter_report

Now, before you go all fucking Mel Gibson on me again. THIS IS ON WIKI, please go to the references at the bottom, and read through all of them. This will TAKE you to balanced information which will give you an informed opinion....this is called RESEARCH.

This is your STARTING POINT, do not come back with "the wiki page is wrong". Read the references.........

BTW.....what is wrong with the name Sol ?
Not too jewish for you is it ?
How about I change it to Saul or Jacob or Aaron what do you think ?

(and I use the word think in the loosest possible sense)

I did not ask for the Leuchter report, I was asking for the investigations you said took place in 1994 I wanted that. To compare with other investigations. I don't know when I started reading those articles that were in the reference, but I did finally get done with them, all of them (except ones from the revisionist side as I have already read most of those)

Having done this I came across some interesting things, the supposed gas chambers under the crematoriums in Auschwitz or where ever were likely not gas chambers but morgues, in which case morgues would likely have been more fumigated than other places seeing as how if people did die of typhus they would have been contagious and thus where you stock pile the bodies it becomes essential that you fumigate the place in order to help prevent the spread of the disease.

Another thing why the hell would you have a gas chamber under a crematorium? It seems far more likely that bodies would be stored so close, than machines of death. Also that bodies would be stored underground instead of above ground in order to keep them cooler until they could be cremated.

i also noticed something else and that is an account where an 'eye witness' testimony says that they poured six kilograms of Zyklon B into the gas chamber and according to you this happened quite often. Now pardon me for saying this but wouldn't so much cyanide over such a long period of extensive use undoubtedly leave substantial evidence and would be seriously higher than the trace amounts found? which are only a bit higher than the residues found on other places fumigated (which only suggests a slightly more often fumigated area)... I mean that is 6 Kilos in a one time use.

Further more when I looked into the article about Prussian Blues, I noticed that they mentioned that there were prussian blues that were found on 'homicidal' gas chambers as well. However they failed to mention how prussian blues got on the outside which contradicts the Zundel trial about the cyanide only being traceable on the surface area of the walls which I'll be honest I don't remember how much but I think it was something around 0.1 inches. Now for the delousing chamber found at auschwitz there was a perfectly reasonable explanation for how this happened and that is that bed mattresses once deloused would be beaten to get rid of any extra cyanide on them, the result you see on the outside of the building as well on the inside. Taking that into account alone would it not suggest this 'homicidal' gas chamber was not used for murder but was actually just another delousing chamber?

Another thing that caught my eye was the supposed amount of people who were being killed as well as the quite generous amount of people the crematoriums would have been able to dispose of.

If you researched into crematoriums you would know that it takes a few hours 2-3 for a Modern Crematorium to fully turn the body into ash (which there are then bones which must be crushed down) and a intermission period where the Crematorium needs to cool. Believe it or not but there are advances in fields of society you would not expect, That was for a modern crematorium now think about an antique crematorium like those used at the concentration camps. They can not be operational 24/7 without suffering seriously damaging themselves. (I regress they are made of brick if you've bothered to look at the pictures) also each furnace would only be capable of handling 1 body at a time or 2 if it was a dual furnace but if you stuff more than one body at a time in there (which is an account of eye witnesses) then it would most likely take more time to cremate both bodies, if not there would still be more ashes to clean out.

Now then I would like the 94 investigations. If it was in one of the references please point out which one it was so I can reread it.

(11-03-2012 07:59 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I'm gonna leave this here http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#v

Already read it.

(11-03-2012 08:42 AM)Dom Wrote:  If the Jews are all in Israel (the population isn't big enough) then what happened to all the Polish, Czech and Germans?

The nazis liked to raid houses in the middle of the night and take away all occupants. Jews were on the list, Germans who spoke up , Germans who could not prove their ancestry (yes, everyone had to produce a family tree) , whole hospital and mental institutions full of people, they all disappeared nto thin air.

Asking christians about god is not at all like asking eye witnesses about what they saw with their own two eyes.

And yes, it makes me sick. It was a horrific time for all of the nations involved, and all of the individuals involved, and it ended up having an incredible impact on many nations for decades to come.

And Hitler did think he was god, and he had a cult following and managed to do so much damage.

And still, he has a cult following. That does make me sick!

If it makes you sick then leave, you are obviously unable to make an unbiased decision either way in your current emotional state you are no good to either side. You're letting your emotions control you and if you want that then by all means go right ahead, but you can not be logical while you're emotional. I mean you certainly aren't picking on the Soviets for the last I checked was 80 million people who they murdered or the chinese, or the North Koreans... all who supposedly did these exact same thing the nazi's were doing (taking away people to murder them according to you) yet from my stand point the nazi's put them in concentration camps and the U.S. did the exact same thing with the Japanese yet you aren't picking on the U.S. for doing that, and you also say the nazi's mass murdered these people but perhaps the U.S. could have mass murdered Japanese people and yet you still don't even look at any side other than the Nazi's.

You're emotions control you therefore you are not being rational, regardless of who's right.

I will happily pick on anyone who eradicates people like so much trash. I will also happily pick on slaughterhouses in the US and elsewhere for how they deal with animals.

I am not partucularly emotional about the holocaust, I was born when it was all over with and my own family suffered no losses.

I also haven't researched the gas chambers and crematoriums, nor do I want to.

I don't really care of we are talking about 100,000 or a million or several million, it's sick to do this to people and animals alike.

If you impose a rule of terror on anyone, it makes me sick. How would you feel if police raided the homes of atheists at night and people would disappear from the surface of the earth? Would you still be posting here?

Arguing about the numbers is crap. And there is absolutely no doubt that people were taken out of their homes and disappeared. The pictures of emaciated people are not fake. The many thousands of Polish and Czech who were taken from their houses and never returned are also not a lie.

This shit happens all the time all over the world and is a testament to how unevolved humans really are.

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11-03-2012, 11:06 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 09:18 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  Now then I would like the 94 investigations. If it was in one of the references please point out which one it was so I can reread it.

Well, seeing as how asked all nice and such.... I will be as polite as I can in return.
If, as you maintain, you have done extensive research and dun lotz of readin and stuff ----- could you tell me how you missed the Krakow report or any of the rebuttals of Leuchters report..... Interesting.

(11-03-2012 09:18 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(11-03-2012 07:59 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I'm gonna leave this here http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#v

Already read it.

And yet you missed the Krakow report contained therein. Also interesting

I am left in a quandary, Either you are one of the worst examples of dumb dribbling incompetence, or you are being intentionally obtuse..

Your responses are indeed pretty much just cut and paste sock puppetry of the poorest quality.

Nothing of what you say is original or new and in all cases has been refuted many, many times using proper evidence and scientific methodology.
Your methodology however is intentional obfuscation and just plain making shit up.

Now then, here is my dilemma ---
Do I go through each and every inane point you make. which allows you to have a platform for the crapitude you spout.
OR
Do I just ignore you because of the trolling, nature of you posts ?

You see its that difficult to know whether you are that naive or you are that ignorant.

You seem to be very selective about what you think are facts, you didn't know about Leuchters - The Krakow report - The Nizkor project.

What else will you dismiss out of hand in order to promulgate your particular WAG. ?
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11-03-2012, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2012 11:18 AM by Eternal.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Dear TheAssholeStooge. David Irving. You say our sources could be biased, that man is so one sided no one except the aforementioned neo nazis take him seriously. Read the entry in Wiki followed by the sources underneath. He has been discredited as a Historian for purposely misrepresenting facts to meet his own agenda, seriously, it is like pulling a catholic peadophile out of the hat to help prove there is a god.

He lost a case of libel for claims in one of his books, he wilfully mistranslated documents, fabricated historical statistics, eventually went bankrupt and now no one will publish his books. I suspect you will say this is all some sort of jewish conspiracy to discredit him, and that is your right, just as it is my right to think you are an asshat. I suspect it was also the jewish conspiracy that got him banned from Australia and Germany or was that just his honesty and winning personality.

Either way I am bowing out, I do not have the knowledge to debate this matter, I would usually read, research etc, but quite frankly I can't be bothered. From what I have seen already I think you are intellectually dishonest and no amount of back and fourth will do anything. You have dismissed articles and sites that contain references too, or the complete scientific evidence you want. What more can we do other than presume you are massively biased.

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