Was the Holocaust... a lie?
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11-03-2012, 11:19 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 10:48 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Well done, you managed to completely avoid the only point that I made. You claimed something emphatically about Sol. You were wrong. Now say sorry like a good little TheAssholeStooge (I like this renaming thing, good idea of yours) and we might start to play nicely from here on out.

Eternal, he knew that David Cole had been threatened/forced to recant and he thought it was a good argument anyways. So no I will not apologize. That's like saying Osama Bin Laden confessed to 9/11 but only after he had been tortured still claiming it as a legitimate confession regardless of whether he actually did them or not.

Even when asked to provide this information he did not because he knew the reason, and then like a bigot he said what? (well you're going to deny it and say he was forced)

BECAUSE HE WAS. So no I will not apologize. IF Neil Armstrong admitted to never landing on the moon, Charles Darwin confessed that he was wrong in his evolutionary theory, or Albert Einstein later recanted his Theory of relativity. and they 'confessed' or 'recanted' these things because people had threatened/forced them, you would say people forced them to wouldn't you?

So it's not psychic powers it's called being something not very nice, I will not apologize for calling him out on it. I assumed he knew, because I hadn't read his post thoroughly my assumption seems to have been correct, therefore I am psychic.

So no I will not apologize, and call me whatever you want I don't care.
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11-03-2012, 11:27 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 11:19 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(11-03-2012 10:48 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Well done, you managed to completely avoid the only point that I made. You claimed something emphatically about Sol. You were wrong. Now say sorry like a good little TheAssholeStooge (I like this renaming thing, good idea of yours) and we might start to play nicely from here on out.

Eternal, he knew that David Cole had been threatened/forced to recant and he thought it was a good argument anyways. So no I will not apologize. That's like saying Osama Bin Laden confessed to 9/11 but only after he had been tortured still claiming it as a legitimate confession regardless of whether he actually did them or not.

Even when asked to provide this information he did not because he knew the reason, and then like a bigot he said what? (well you're going to deny it and say he was forced)

BECAUSE HE WAS. So no I will not apologize. IF Neil Armstrong admitted to never landing on the moon, Charles Darwin confessed that he was wrong in his evolutionary theory, or Albert Einstein later recanted his Theory of relativity. and they 'confessed' or 'recanted' these things because people had threatened/forced them, you would say people forced them to wouldn't you?

So it's not psychic powers it's called being something not very nice, I will not apologize for calling him out on it. I assumed he knew, because I hadn't read his post thoroughly my assumption seems to have been correct, therefore I am psychic.

So no I will not apologize, and call me whatever you want I don't care.

Dear TheAssholeStooge

Again you are twisting shit. He received death threats. You called Sol a liar because he did not mention this, Sol did mention this. You are wrong.

Your opinion or Sol's opinion on these death threats does not matter in relation to the point that I was making. Getting all pissy because of your personal opinion on these death threats contradicts your earlier points about being rational and unemotional when discussing the deaths of millions, yet you get so passionate about death threats to one. Hmmmm. Are you using your emotion when it suits you, and claiming others are lesser when they use theirs. Just another example of intellectual dishonesty.

Reply as you will, that is me done. I leave with the impression that your a lying little shite who I wouldn't flick the sweat from my balls on if you were on fire.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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11-03-2012, 11:52 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2012 12:15 PM by TheArcticSage.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 11:06 AM)Sol Wrote:  And yet you missed the Krakow report contained therein. Also interesting

I am left in a quandary, Either you are one of the worst examples of dumb dribbling incompetence, or you are being intentionally obtuse..

Your responses are indeed pretty much just cut and paste sock puppetry of the poorest quality.

Nothing of what you say is original or new and in all cases has been refuted many, many times using proper evidence and scientific methodology.
Your methodology however is intentional obfuscation and just plain making shit up.

It's a matter of how much, how the cyanide got there, a critical thinker will take into account everything involved in the situation and not just one possibility.

Such possibilities were in my response. It does make sense that a morgue would be next to a crematorium and that said morgue would be underground. It also makes sense that when typhus epidemics broke out these morgues would be fumigated due to the amount of infestation accumulated in one area.

I did not come to that conclusion from a different article, that analysis is my own. If someone else came to that conclusion bravo to them.

The mattresses and the prussian blue response is from the 46 questions about the holocaust by David Cole. Regardless of recantation we still must take his research into account. (because they make exceptionally good points that you would probably like to ignore and so you say his argument is invalid because he recanted it which is not so because he was forced.).




(11-03-2012 11:27 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Dear TheArcticSage

Again you are twisting shit. He received death threats. You called Sol a liar because he did not mention this, Sol did mention this. You are wrong.

Your opinion or Sol's opinion on these death threats does not matter in relation to the point that I was making. Getting all pissy because of your personal opinion on these death threats contradicts your earlier points about being rational and unemotional when discussing the deaths of millions, yet you get so passionate about death threats to one. Hmmmm. Are you using your emotion when it suits you, and claiming others are lesser when they use theirs. Just another example of intellectual dishonesty.

Reply as you will, that is me done. I leave with the impression that your a lying little shite who I wouldn't flick the sweat from my balls on if you were on fire.


I will certainly not apologize for assuming he knew about them, because I was right. Nor will I apologize for calling him out on misleading people or anything of that matter. He knew very well that David Cole had been forced, and so he knew very well that I would say he was forced, because the bottom line is he was forced. So telling others that I would claim that he was forced as a sign of 'circular logic' is certainly misleading people.

If you want me to apologize for calling him a liar, fine. I'm sorry Sol for calling you a liar, you are an obviously not a liar. You're a troll. Most if not all of what you have posted in this thread has been insults, and misleading.

And eternal I am not contradicting myself, you only need to be rational and unemotional when studying data and making decisions about the data. I am not getting pissy about death threats, I'm getting pissy because I'm feeding trolls.

I've taken both your insults with stride, but if you want me to reply to either of you again on this matter, you will stop trying to get under my skin.

I don't like trolls especially trolls who claim to be rational atheists, it gives atheists a bad name.
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11-03-2012, 01:01 PM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2012 01:15 PM by morondog.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irvin...er_Diaries

I think his action on this one point is enough to show him to be a biased source. I have read the entire article on him and am satisfied that
(a) He is not respected for his scholarship.
(b) He has a personal bias.
© He is not an honest man. Witness this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irvin...ontroversy

In addition, I have found a couple of other links
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...brief.html

Quote:Finally, Barnes attempted to raise doubts about the Holocaust in general by raising doubts regarding the existence of gas chambers as a means of extermination....The existence and implementation of gas chambers for extermination purposes is a matter of special concern to deniers since they symbolize more dramatically than anything else the rational, systematic and impersonal nature of the killing machine. Every Holocaust denier feels compelled to make this issue central the argument. Barnes' contention was that the gas chambers were post-war inventions Surely Barnes was aware of the extensive testimony provided to the British as early as 1944 by Auschwitz escapee, Rudolph Vrba (see Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz And The Allies , 1981:190-198).

App's major contribution to Holocaust denial lies in his codification of denial into eight fundamental tenets (The following are adapted from Deborah Lipstadt, 1994:99-100):

Emigration, not extermination was the Nazi plan for dealing with Germany's "Jewish problem." His main evidence for this assertion is that if Germany had planned total extermination, no Jews would have survived.
No Jews were gassed in any German camps and probably not at Auschwitz either. He argued that the crematoria were designed to cremate those who died from other causes -- natural illness, etc.
Jews who disappeared during the years of WWII and have not been accounted for did so in territories under Soviet, rather than German, control.
The majority of Jews who were killed by the Nazis were people whom the Nazis had every right to "execute" as subversives, spies, and criminals.
If the Holocaust claims have any truth, Israel would have opened its archives to historians. Instead, he claims, they have preferred to continue perpetuating the Holocaust "hoax" by utilizing the charge of "antisemitism" against anyone who questions it.
All evidence to support the Holocaust "hoax" of 6 million dead rests upon misquotes of Nazis and Nazi documents.
Burden of proof argument. It is incumbent upon the accusers to prove the 6 million figure. Instead, App argues, Germany has been forced to prove that the 6 million is incorrect. This argument rests upon App's (and others') assertion that reparations paid to Israel by Germany are based on the 6 million figure. He consistently refers to the reparations as a Zionist "swindle."
Jewish historians and other scholars have great discrepancies in their calculations of the number of victims. App takes this as evidence that the claims are unverified.
The above assertions stand as the fundamental tenets of contemporary Holocaust denial...

That seems like an accurate summary of your argument so far. You have not produced a credible historian to back you up. I conclude that you're nuts, and leave it at that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_d...SS_members

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_o...s_chambers

I can't quote, the points are too long.

This information is *widely* available. How is it that in your years of searching you never came across it?
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11-03-2012, 02:22 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Dear Trudy,

You are calling me a liar, a bigot, and a troll. You say I am insulting........

You, on the other hand, are simply denying the genocide of ww2 ever happened.......

Have I got that right ?

Let me get my dictionary out and look up abnegation.... hmm there it is, very close to abhorrent..

I think I am with others and will leave you alone with your intellectual five knuckle shuffle approach to reason and logic

It would be true to say that your level of intelligence leaves me at a distinct disadvantage, when it comes to discussion.

Peace and love

Sol
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11-03-2012, 03:58 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
I didn't read this whole thing, 9 pages of thread, sorry no. I am sure a lot of hate and a lot of arguing is happening.
I am not hating around now, I just would like to share some small facts about this.


I am German. Not only did I learn A LOT about this at school, I also have grand parents who lived during this time.
I used to live like 2km away from one of those camps, in German it is "Konzentrationslager". And I visited it twice (first time during school time, second time years later to read and so on)
So first of all, that place (Dachau) has a gas chamber and a place to burn people.
The gas chamber has the word "Brausebad" written on it, which is an old world for a "shower". That was written there so people would willingly enter that place. Let's not forget that hygene was very low and being allowed to have a shower would be like birthday. The gaschamber is about 4m x 6m, I was in there, it is really small. Into a gaschamber of this size they would pack about 30-40 people, which means once you are dead you can't even fall because there is no space to fall.
So after being killed in there they would be put into the place where you burn them.
Now your argument about it taking so long to burn.
We are talking about people who had no fat on their bodies and next to no muscles anymore. They got next to no food but worked hard all day long. They were weak from the long shifts and lots of standing and the psycho terror, the constand fear to be executed on the spot if you are not walking in line perfectly or scratch your nose at the wrong time. This whole thing wears a person down, there is not a lot left. Take the clothes off and the skin is burnt through the rest burns pretty fast, the bones are put aside dang next one. We are not talking about people being properly burnt. Jews where not seen as humans so they where not treated like humans. Why burn the bones until done... anyway

Some say noone ever has been put into gas chamber in Dachau, some say they were. One thing is sure, the burning thing was being used.

The whole thing happened and people died like crazy.

Do all people, who experienced things during those times, lie? All just imagination? Seriously?

My grandparents always told the story when they had to leave the place where they grew up until they where 7 years old. They had to walk the whole way and once they slept in a shed with a lot of other people and some military started shooting into the shed from outside (it was a wooden one). This is a part of that thing. They were still scarred from this as old people. Wanna tell me, that also didn't happen?

There is no "believing" in genocide. It happened.

(09-03-2012 07:39 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  For not only is questioning the holocaust illegal in Europe, but denying it ever happened is also illegal. Your thoughts on this?
It is not only the questioning of the holocast.
And saying out loud that it didn't happen will not instantly bring you to jail.
Did you really only think that far?

The problem are the people who want that kind of government back in place and these are the people and parties that will say that nothing bad has happened. And with their pseudoscience they will make people join and help.
That is very very dangerous and to prevent this, people who are in such parties and start saying these things will be observed closely and if they step out of line they have a problem. - which is a good thing


Sorry for the novel but this is a hot topic for me.

Thanks for the attention.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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11-03-2012, 04:03 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
I live in Germany. I can say that it happened.

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11-03-2012, 04:17 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 03:58 PM)Leela Wrote:  The problem are the people who want that kind of government back in place and these are the people and parties that will say that nothing bad has happened. And with their pseudoscience they will make people join and help.

Precisely. And I don't see how any self-respecting atheist can believe this shit, it's a cult around one of history's most deluded and despicable people. It fosters delusions of grandeur and scapegoats another race, blaming all of the world's evil on them.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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11-03-2012, 04:41 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 04:17 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(11-03-2012 03:58 PM)Leela Wrote:  The problem are the people who want that kind of government back in place and these are the people and parties that will say that nothing bad has happened. And with their pseudoscience they will make people join and help.

Precisely. And I don't see how any self-respecting atheist can believe this shit, it's a cult around one of history's most deluded and despicable people. It fosters delusions of grandeur and scapegoats another race, blaming all of the world's evil on them.

Yes ... in other words, a continuation of the anti-Semitism central to the New Testament. Why do we have problems? "The Jews" killed our Messiah. It sounds ludicrously absurd until you realize people actually take that seriously.
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11-03-2012, 04:50 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(11-03-2012 03:58 PM)Leela Wrote:  I didn't read this whole thing, 9 pages of thread, sorry no. I am sure a lot of hate and a lot of arguing is happening.
I am not hating around now, I just would like to share some small facts about this.


I am German. Not only did I learn A LOT about this at school, I also have grand parents who lived during this time.
I used to live like 2km away from one of those camps, in German it is "Konzentrationslager". And I visited it twice (first time during school time, second time years later to read and so on)
So first of all, that place (Dachau) has a gas chamber and a place to burn people.
The gas chamber has the word "Brausebad" written on it, which is an old world for a "shower". That was written there so people would willingly enter that place. Let's not forget that hygene was very low and being allowed to have a shower would be like birthday. The gaschamber is about 4m x 6m, I was in there, it is really small. Into a gaschamber of this size they would pack about 30-40 people, which means once you are dead you can't even fall because there is no space to fall.
So after being killed in there they would be put into the place where you burn them.
Now your argument about it taking so long to burn.
We are talking about people who had no fat on their bodies and next to no muscles anymore. They got next to no food but worked hard all day long. They were weak from the long shifts and lots of standing and the psycho terror, the constand fear to be executed on the spot if you are not walking in line perfectly or scratch your nose at the wrong time. This whole thing wears a person down, there is not a lot left. Take the clothes off and the skin is burnt through the rest burns pretty fast, the bones are put aside dang next one. We are not talking about people being properly burnt. Jews where not seen as humans so they where not treated like humans. Why burn the bones until done... anyway

Some say noone ever has been put into gas chamber in Dachau, some say they were. One thing is sure, the burning thing was being used.

The whole thing happened and people died like crazy.

Do all people, who experienced things during those times, lie? All just imagination? Seriously?

My grandparents always told the story when they had to leave the place where they grew up until they where 7 years old. They had to walk the whole way and once they slept in a shed with a lot of other people and some military started shooting into the shed from outside (it was a wooden one). This is a part of that thing. They were still scarred from this as old people. Wanna tell me, that also didn't happen?

There is no "believing" in genocide. It happened.

(09-03-2012 07:39 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  For not only is questioning the holocaust illegal in Europe, but denying it ever happened is also illegal. Your thoughts on this?
It is not only the questioning of the holocast.
And saying out loud that it didn't happen will not instantly bring you to jail.
Did you really only think that far?

The problem are the people who want that kind of government back in place and these are the people and parties that will say that nothing bad has happened. And with their pseudoscience they will make people join and help.
That is very very dangerous and to prevent this, people who are in such parties and start saying these things will be observed closely and if they step out of line they have a problem. - which is a good thing


Sorry for the novel but this is a hot topic for me.

Thanks for the attention.

(11-03-2012 04:03 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I live in Germany. I can say that it happened.

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Well done, Leela and Logica. I'd say that deflates this ridiculous idea quite well.

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It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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