Was the Holocaust... a lie?
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10-03-2012, 09:38 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
So, the thousands of pictures, eye-witness accounts, survivor testimony, depositions from allied soldiers, confessions by former nazi officials, contemporary documents, piles of human skulls, pits full of human remains, medical reports and several million missing persons are not convincing enough.

What the hell would be sufficient evidence? Experiencing it for yourself? In that case, none of pre-ArcticSage history can be sufficiently proven, so why bother to question it?

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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10-03-2012, 09:38 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
On the list of european countries only 4 have ever bought cases for holocaust denial. France, Germany, Switzerland and Austria. There are currently about 27 countries in the EU. How does this prove your point?

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-03-2012, 11:16 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2012 11:20 AM by TheArcticSage.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 09:38 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  So, the thousands of pictures, eye-witness accounts, survivor testimony, depositions from allied soldiers, confessions by former nazi officials, contemporary documents, piles of human skulls, pits full of human remains, medical reports and several million missing persons are not convincing enough.

What the hell would be sufficient evidence? Experiencing it for yourself? In that case, none of pre-ArcticSage history can be sufficiently proven, so why bother to question it?

Pictures are worth a thousand words, eye-witness accounts can be intentionally false, survivor testimony can be false, the confessions brought during the Nuremberg trial... a sad case... those confessions and the confessions of others are not to be trusted. What documents? piles of human skulls and pits full of human remains, as I said earlier, I do not deny the individual actions against perpetrated by Nazi soldiers, or allied soldiers during the war. Medical reports? you still believe in the 6 million number?

Rather I have already told you my stance on the pictures of bodies, there are many ways they could have died, and it was most likely due to typhus (even anne frank died of typhus). Survivor testimonies have been proven false in the past, so if we are to discredit that there no longer becomes a credibility for eye-witnesses let alone survivor accounts. The Nuremburg trials... the utter corruption of our judicial system... you think that we wouldn't torture individuals for a confession? Oh my you have to learn, indeed there's even evidence to support that the ones on trial at Nuremberg were tortured, some of them knowing they were going to die took their life in their owns. Rather so... some of the executed were later proven innocent. So... why would they confess to crimes they didn't commit?

And I think I already explained the bodies. I don't quite understand what you mean by medical reports and statistical data after the war could have very well been modified. and I would also like to know what documents you speak of.
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10-03-2012, 11:38 AM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
ok, lets say they all died of typhus (I don't believe this but for the sake of the argument I'll give it to you for a moment) why on earth, if they didn't want to exterminate all that people, did they locked them up in the concentration camps? why didn't they give them medicine? why didn't they just let them go? why keeping them in a place where they'd surely die of some disease? that doesn't strike me as the conduct someone who doesn't want them dead would do...

what kind of proof are you asking for? do you believe the egiptians build the pyramids? because by your standards almost everything that happened, and happens in the world is impossible to prove

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10-03-2012, 12:12 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 11:38 AM)nach_in Wrote:  ok, lets say they all died of typhus (I don't believe this but for the sake of the argument I'll give it to you for a moment) why on earth, if they didn't want to exterminate all of them, why did they lock them up in the concentration camps? why didn't they give them medicine? why didn't they just let them go? why keeping them in a place where they'd surely die of some disease? that doesn't strike me as the conduct someone who doesn't want them dead would do...

what kind of proof are you asking for? do you believe the egiptians build the pyramids? because by your standards almost everything that happened, and happens in the world is impossible to prove

Good questions, when I say most of them died of Typhus I mean a number of around 500,000 AT MOST maybe less.... probably less.... they were deported to concentration camps to make the task easier for deporting them out of Germany and more probably somewhere in the middle east in a small nation called Palestine, once the Germans took control of it (which they never managed) They did give them medicine, most if not all the camps had a hospital of some sort where if they did get sick they would be treated as best as they could. However, many idiots in the camps thought that if you got sick you would be killed, so denied treatment and died of various diseases... due to their own stupidity. Soooo by that last bit of logic because the United States stuck thousands of Japanese in concentration camps during the war where epidemics would break out that the United States wanted all the Japanese dead?

I want gas chambers, with evidence that they are gas chambers and were used to mass exterminate the jews and others. I don't want Soviet Replicas.

And as for the pyramids I believe aliens built them... OF COURSE I believe the Egyptians made them I mean come on I'm insane here just an unbiased and objective mind! Tongue I take most ancient history as it is told, however I severely speculate some history of the past two centuries. I still need to research into the History of the Civil War of the United States. I have a sneaking suspicion that something is amiss there like a story that hasn't been fully told. Mainly because the Federal Union of the United States derived from victory during the Civil War.

And after learning that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks and the holocaust lie I have a bit of a trust problem with said government
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10-03-2012, 12:34 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 08:44 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  Show a source for the 94 study please, it's the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. Also a source for Cole retracting his revisions first time I've heard of that too.

As I said..... not really done the research have you ?

Fuck off ... you find the information, its not hidden, its not secret, you are the one being the expert....

If someone else would like a pointer to the info............ I'm happy to oblige.
(Privately of course, wouldn't want to impinge on your delusion..... or do any thinking for you)
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10-03-2012, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2012 12:54 PM by Blood.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(09-03-2012 07:39 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  The Holocaust was relatively low on my list of things to eventually inquiry... that was until I found out in the European Union you'll be sent to prison for up to 3 years for merely questioning the holocaust. That sent the alarm and caused me to wave the red flags in my brain, surely something as 'irrefutable' as the holocaust didn't warrant such a penalty?

The EU laws are so strict because Europeans are trying to atone for allowing the Holocaust to happen in the first place. A lot of laws are written out of post facto guilt, and have been for as long as there have been laws. There is nothing surprising or suspicious about the EU laws.

(09-03-2012 07:39 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  I had always been worried about how little scientific evidence there was to support the holocaust, I mean something that would really bind the holocaust actually happening. Like testing for Cyanide in the supposed gas chambers... eventually one scientist did test for cyanide. Keeping it secret to avoid tampering with, the result was that no traces of cyanide were found except for in a small gas chamber. Oh yes, there were gas chambers, used to delouse clothing brought into the camps to kill lice and prevent epidemics of Typhus.

Utter bullshit. You may want to extend your research beyond Holocaust Denial websites.

(09-03-2012 07:39 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  The Jews even in the holocaust story were originally going to be deported from Nazi Europe. The only question was where? The answer is relatively simple, the Jews would've been deported to Palestine once the Nazi's conquered it.

And your evidence for this ...?

(09-03-2012 07:39 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  The problem with that is now the ENTIRE state of Israel DEPENDS on people believing in the Holocaust for it's very existence. Without it, the support for their nation would be severely undermined (and the U.S. gives tons of support for Israel). So in order to silence dissent, they made it illegal to question the holocaust. They bribed, or threatened the EU I don't know how they did it, to make it illegal. Thank goodness Americans value their freedoms so much... otherwise I would be in jail right now.

Conspiracy theory hogwash. "The Jews" didn't make it illegal to question the Holocaust in the EU -- European magistrates did. There were no "bribes."

If the Holocaust had happened in the USA, you can bet your ass that questioning it would be illegal here.

(09-03-2012 07:39 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  For not only is questioning the holocaust illegal in Europe, but denying it ever happened is also illegal. Your thoughts on this?

Please educate yourself on this before you succumb to anti-semitism, if you haven't already.





(09-03-2012 08:37 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  So those pictures of people who are starved to the bone it becomes more of a question... were they starved deliberately? Or... when the allies bombed the supply routes of the Nazi occupied Europe they were unable to get food to these remote camps? Curious thing though, many of them did not die of starvation, they died of Typhus. Anne Frank died of Typhus. So I suppose you could say allied negligence led to the death of many Jews towards the end of World War II.

Oh, give me a fucking break, please. THE ALLIES caused the death of "many Jews"? You have completely lost your mind.
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10-03-2012, 01:26 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 12:49 PM)Blood Wrote:  The EU laws are so strict because Europeans are trying to atone for allowing the Holocaust to happen in the first place. A lot of laws are written out of post facto guilt, and have been for as long as there have been laws. There is nothing surprising or suspicious about the EU laws.

The EU sucks balls, I'm sorry but it does. It goes beyond criminalizing the questioning or contesting of the holocaust, it also deals with 'multiculturalism', 'hate speech', letting murderers and rapists go free so they can do the same crimes again and give the legal system more money (which is a problem in the U.S. too) and more.

(10-03-2012 12:49 PM)Blood Wrote:  Utter bullshit. You may want to extend your research beyond Holocaust Denial websites.

You might want to do some more research period, this information can be found by those who support the holocaust to. Please don't assume that I didn't look at both sides of the argument equally.

(10-03-2012 12:49 PM)Blood Wrote:  
(09-03-2012 07:39 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  The Jews even in the holocaust story were originally going to be deported from Nazi Europe. The only question was where? The answer is relatively simple, the Jews would've been deported to Palestine once the Nazi's conquered it.

And your evidence for this ...?

Concentration camps? Even before I became a holocaust 'denier' if you researched into the mainstream holocaust story you would find out that the original plan (if we were looking at it as if the holocaust happened) was simply to deport the jews out of Nazi Germany, another likely place would have been Russia, or the East. It doesn't just have to be Palestine. But as we already know, certain groups really wanted to go to Palestine. I mean come on... the jews could have been resettled ANYWHERE and they chose Palestine. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that there may have been more behind that.

(10-03-2012 12:49 PM)Blood Wrote:  Conspiracy theory hogwash. "The Jews" didn't make it illegal to question the Holocaust in the EU -- European magistrates did. There were no "bribes."

If the Holocaust had happened in the USA, you can bet your ass that questioning it would be illegal here.

As for the EU making it illegal to question the holocaust, it may have had nothing to jews with any jewish influence I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Because Europe is literally being screwed when it comes to freedom. In some cases literally, rapists and murderers roam the streets there more freely than they ever would here. Compliments of not being able to execute them... because that to is illegal.

Quite the contrary, 9/11 happened here and we are still able to openly question and deny it. As I have questioned it and come to the conclusion that the government was behind the attacks, not some 3rd world idiot organization.

(10-03-2012 12:49 PM)Blood Wrote:  Please educate yourself on this before you succumb to anti-semitism, if you haven't already.

I am NOT an antisemitic NOR am I a racist, and do not assume because I came to this conclusion that I must therefore be... uneducated. As an Atheist I find racism silly and ignorant, I wish nothing more that people could live alongside one another on this planet.

(10-03-2012 12:49 PM)Blood Wrote:  Oh, give me a fucking break, please. THE ALLIES caused the death of "many Jews"? You have completely lost your mind.

The allies caused a lot of civilian casualties in World War II, not just the Jews. Just as today... allied negligence has lead to the deaths of nearly 1 million civilians in this 'war on terror'.

(10-03-2012 12:34 PM)Sol Wrote:  
(10-03-2012 08:44 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  Show a source for the 94 study please, it's the first time I've ever heard of such a thing. Also a source for Cole retracting his revisions first time I've heard of that too.

As I said..... not really done the research have you ?

Fuck off ... you find the information, its not hidden, its not secret, you are the one being the expert....

If someone else would like a pointer to the info............ I'm happy to oblige.
(Privately of course, wouldn't want to impinge on your delusion..... or do any thinking for you)

Splendid, when asked for the proof you just say fuck off and call me delusional, but the burden of proof lays with you to support your argument. You are making the claim after all.
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10-03-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Seriously, what is wrong with you people!

I don't agree with TheArcticSage on this but no-one is properly engaging him, people are just dismissing and ridiculing him. I actually admire him for having the balls to bring up such a contentious issue and to be honest all credit to the guy. He's trying to debate based on what he considers evidence, that's the sort of thing we should be encouraging. But instead of challenging him on rational grounds and presenting counter evidence all anyone seems to wanna do is have a go at him.

Also gonna point out that this section of the forum is rife with people saying that we should never trust governments and believe official accounts of things. Is that only applied selectively? I'm not a conspiracy person, I generally don't buy into any of it but at least I'm consistent. I get the feeling that some of you will only apply your critical thinking to less contentious topics.

Also gonna point out the inconsistent attitude to eyewitness testimony. Whenever a theist points out that thousands of people claim to have seen God we all claim that eyewitness testimonies are unreliable and the worst evidence. Why are people now trying to claim them as a solid defence all of a sudden? Same applies to burden of proof Sol, we've all used the phrase 'the burden of proof is on the believer' before, what does that suddenly not apply?

Sorry if anyone feels I'm being overly critical but things like this are why I have so little faith in humanity. We champion all these ideals such as questioning everything, all opinions being equal, scientific evidence, everyone have their say without fear of ridicule but none of these ideals exist. Everyone goes on and on about them but then as soon as someone says something people don't like these ideals are binned and the poor person who's only trying to engage in discussion with a controversial view is vilified. It's ridiculous.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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10-03-2012, 01:58 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2012 02:15 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Quote:ArcticSage:
Pictures are worth a thousand words, eye-witness accounts can be intentionally false, survivor testimony can be false, the confessions brought during the Nuremberg trial... a sad case... those confessions and the confessions of others are not to be trusted. What documents? piles of human skulls and pits full of human remains, as I said earlier, I do not deny the individual actions against perpetrated by Nazi soldiers, or allied soldiers during the war. Medical reports? you still believe in the 6 million number?

Any record can be faked. Therefore all such proofs of all the other massacres and atrocities in the history of the world are equally suspect. Nothing we read or learn in school or hear from our grandparents is true. Including whatever evidence there is to contradict the evidence we suspect.
Then - I repeat - why question it? Any of it? Whatever you discover is as likely to be false as true and you will never, ever know.

Quote:Hughsie:
Also gonna point out the inconsistent attitude to eyewitness testimony. Whenever a theist points out that thousands of people claim to have seen God we all claim that eyewitness testimonies are unreliable and the worst evidence. Why are people now trying to claim them as a solid defence all of a sudden? Same applies to burden of proof Sol, we've all used the phrase 'the burden of proof is on the believer' before, what does that suddenly not apply?

Because it's all been so thoroughly raked over before, a hundred times. This is nothing like believing in an invisible god: the victims of WWII were all too visible. The events are recent enough for records to be preserved - even in war - and it's not one government but several, plus several news agencies, plus individual soldiers and civilians, red cross workers and nuns and nurses and bystanders. Many sources, with different interests and axes to grind. And, of course, the subject matter is neither improbable nor supernatural.
In fact, we are being consistent. The cross-corroborative evidence - physical, testamonial, graphic and confessional - all point to the same conclusion. I don't see that we need to re-try every convicted murderer whenever some ignorant latecomer decides to imagine a preferable, if unlikely, scenario.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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