Was the Holocaust... a lie?
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10-03-2012, 02:03 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 01:58 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Any record can be faked. Therefore all such proofs of all the other massacres and atrocities in the history of the world are equally suspect. Nothing we read or learn in school or hear from our grandparents is true. Including whatever evidence there is to contradict the evidence we suspect.
Then - I repeat - why question it? Any of it? Whatever you discover is as likely to be false as true and you will never, ever know.

So why pursue any conspiracy theory then? The moon landing, 9/11, the War in Iraq. Why have this forum section at all? You seem to be suggesting that it is pointless to challenge the official version of events in a situation. If that's what you are asserting then it applies to all situations, you don't get to pick and choose.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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10-03-2012, 02:29 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 01:26 PM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  Splendid, when asked for the proof you just say fuck off and call me delusional, but the burden of proof lays with you to support your argument. You are making the claim after all.

Are you having a giraffe, srsly ?

I am not making a claim. Genocide occurred. There is insurmountable evidence that it occurred. the fact that you choose to ignore the evidence that it occurred is not my concern. The fact that you try and find a "gap" in the evidence so that you can install a twisted point of view, is not my concern.

My concern is with truth.
Those tone trolls who support and encourage your point of view simply because the honest counter response is voiced firmly and with passion and they don't like it, should hang their heads in shame. They support this kind of anti-semetic BS and don't even realise it........ or even deny it.......

Proof, (if you really want it) is easy to find, Coles rebuttal, Luechters incompetence in his initial findings....... its all out there, use your pretend scepticism on it.

Why should I point you in the right direction, you are the one with the fantasy conjecture. Go look it up. FFS.
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10-03-2012, 02:35 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2012 02:45 PM by TheArcticSage.)
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 01:38 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Seriously, what is wrong with you people!

I don't agree with TheArcticSage on this but no-one is properly engaging him, people are just dismissing and ridiculing him. I actually admire him for having the balls to bring up such a contentious issue and to be honest all credit to the guy. He's trying to debate based on what he considers evidence, that's the sort of thing we should be encouraging. But instead of challenging him on rational grounds and presenting counter evidence all anyone seems to wanna do is have a go at him.

Also gonna point out that this section of the forum is rife with people saying that we should never trust governments and believe official accounts of things. Is that only applied selectively? I'm not a conspiracy person, I generally don't buy into any of it but at least I'm consistent. I get the feeling that some of you will only apply your critical thinking to less contentious topics.

Also gonna point out the inconsistent attitude to eyewitness testimony. Whenever a theist points out that thousands of people claim to have seen God we all claim that eyewitness testimonies are unreliable and the worst evidence. Why are people now trying to claim them as a solid defence all of a sudden? Same applies to burden of proof Sol, we've all used the phrase 'the burden of proof is on the believer' before, what does that suddenly not apply?

Sorry if anyone feels I'm being overly critical but things like this are why I have so little faith in humanity. We champion all these ideals such as questioning everything, all opinions being equal, scientific evidence, everyone have their say without fear of ridicule but none of these ideals exist. Everyone goes on and on about them but then as soon as someone says something people don't like these ideals are binned and the poor person who's only trying to engage in discussion with a controversial view is vilified. It's ridiculous.

We are only human Hughsie, even Richard Dawkins has compared holocaust deniers such as myself to creationists. Severely disappointed me and I lost a little respect for him but he nonetheless is human like me, and therefore capable of errors just as I am.

Errors, ever since I concluded that the holocaust was a lie my entire view on recent history (up to 200 years) has come under scrutiny. The entire cold war is like a flood of Errors some of the things we are only just learning were government cover ups (on both sides). However even in this pile of errors there are still some undamaged data, such as the space programs you want evidence that we landed on the moon? We got moon rocks! PHYSICAL evidence, and very valuable artifacts. I promised myself if I ever make it big I will buy my way to the moon.

Moon landing conspiracy theorists from what I've seen often only take into account Neil Armstrong flight but there was more than just one landing on the moon. Plus we need to take into account the physical evidence for the rocket itself, the designs of the lunar modules, the events leading up to the lunar landings (which include soviet technology and discoveries) So yes I count that as true... because there is a lot of physical evidence to support it.

Yet if we were to say the concentration camps are evidence for a holocaust we are thereby saying millions of Japanese citizens of the United States could have supposedly been mass murdered as well.

I think you'll find that a lot of Japanese citizens suffered the same plights as Jews did. Loss of property, unequal status, and poor living conditions.

And I haven't even RESEARCHED the Japanese concentration camps, this is the stuff the mainstream media gives out, probably sugar coating some of it. I know thousands of Japanese died in the camps, though the exact number eludes me and is debated by some. Perhaps it was 50,000... or maybe I am confusing the number 50,000 with the reparations that were recently paid to those who had to live in those camps... or maybe I am confusing the reparations for the Japanese it with 'holocaust survivors'... there's 50,000 something.

I have no problem admitting that I don't know everything. However I should research the Japanese story as well. Status update: it seems that my initial thought of 50,000 Japanese deaths may have been wrong, or even my thought that thousands died. Exact number of deaths remain unknown to me, one says 26 another says 2,000.
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10-03-2012, 02:38 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 02:29 PM)Sol Wrote:  Are you having a giraffe, srsly ?

I am not making a claim. Genocide occurred. There is insurmountable evidence that it occurred. the fact that you choose to ignore the evidence that it occurred is not my concern. The fact that you try and find a "gap" in the evidence so that you can install a twisted point of view, is not my concern.

My concern is with truth.
Those tone trolls who support and encourage your point of view simply because the honest counter response is voiced firmly and with passion and they don't like it, should hang their heads in shame. They support this kind of anti-semetic BS and don't even realise it........ or even deny it.......

Proof, (if you really want it) is easy to find, Coles rebuttal, Luechters incompetence in his initial findings....... its all out there, use your pretend scepticism on it.

Why should I point you in the right direction, you are the one with the fantasy conjecture. Go look it up. FFS.

Well you are the one making a claim whether you like it or not. The burden of proof lies on the believer. That applies in all walks of life. It's up to you to refuted his claims with valid evidence which so far you've made a pretty pathetic attempt at, if you could even call it an attempt. All you'd done is tell him he's wrong and he's stupid and there's nothing more to it. As far as defending your stance goes it's laughable. The most annoying thing is that you should have the easiest job in the world here. I've never researched the holocaust but as far as I'm aware finding evidence should be pretty damn easy. That's all you have to do but instead you resort to name calling. Why? What the hell are you trying to achieve?

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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10-03-2012, 02:46 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 01:38 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Seriously, what is wrong with you people!

I don't agree with TheArcticSage on this but no-one is properly engaging him, people are just dismissing and ridiculing him. I actually admire him for having the balls to bring up such a contentious issue and to be honest all credit to the guy. He's trying to debate based on what he considers evidence, that's the sort of thing we should be encouraging. But instead of challenging him on rational grounds and presenting counter evidence all anyone seems to wanna do is have a go at him.

Also gonna point out that this section of the forum is rife with people saying that we should never trust governments and believe official accounts of things. Is that only applied selectively? I'm not a conspiracy person, I generally don't buy into any of it but at least I'm consistent. I get the feeling that some of you will only apply your critical thinking to less contentious topics.

Also gonna point out the inconsistent attitude to eyewitness testimony. Whenever a theist points out that thousands of people claim to have seen God we all claim that eyewitness testimonies are unreliable and the worst evidence. Why are people now trying to claim them as a solid defence all of a sudden? Same applies to burden of proof Sol, we've all used the phrase 'the burden of proof is on the believer' before, what does that suddenly not apply?

Sorry if anyone feels I'm being overly critical but things like this are why I have so little faith in humanity. We champion all these ideals such as questioning everything, all opinions being equal, scientific evidence, everyone have their say without fear of ridicule but none of these ideals exist. Everyone goes on and on about them but then as soon as someone says something people don't like these ideals are binned and the poor person who's only trying to engage in discussion with a controversial view is vilified. It's ridiculous.

Oh my lord Odin, srsly.... this is how you think......

That is the worst kind of quizling, wishy washy, lack of joined up thinking one can come across....

Comparing the delusional, mythical, magical thinking of religious idiocy. with the mass slaughter of fellow human beings in the quest for christ-stain supremecy.
The torture and suffering of millions of people , is the same as a made up story about an ancient desert dwelling goat felcher.... really !!!

I don't know which is worse supporting genocide or supporting someone who supports the rights of genocide supporters to have a point of view...

I find the whole thing fucking weird........ That anyone could support that crap.
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10-03-2012, 02:55 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 02:46 PM)Sol Wrote:  Oh my lord Odin, srsly.... this is how you think......

That is the worst kind of quizling, wishy washy, lack of joined up thinking one can come across....

Comparing the delusional, mythical, magical thinking of religious idiocy. with the mass slaughter of fellow human beings in the quest for christ-stain supremecy.
The torture and suffering of millions of people , is the same as a made up story about an ancient desert dwelling goat felcher.... really !!!

I don't know which is worse supporting genocide or supporting someone who supports the rights of genocide supporters to have a point of view...

I find the whole thing fucking weird........ That anyone could support that crap.

To be honest I find it weird that you seem to be equating how horrific a claim is with how readily we should believe it. It's like you think that we should believe any horrific claim just so we don't offend anyone. The world doesn't work like that. I believe the holocaust happens but I strongly disagree that it should be exempt from the rigours of scientific verification.

Also you seem like the worst type of hypocrite to me. You think that anyone who doesn't see the world as you do shouldn't be allowed an opinion because their opinion is wrong. Again, it's not how the world works.

I also didn't compare the holocaust to religion. I compared eye-witness testimony to eye-witness testimony. Seems like a fair comparison to me. I don't see how anyone can say that it's not reliable evidence on one topic and then suddenly the most reliable evidence going on another topic. Seems kinda inconsistent to say the least.

You also need to learn the difference between approving of a holocaust and not believing one happened. TheArcticSage is saying he doesn't believe it happened, I'm sure he's not condoning the concept though.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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10-03-2012, 03:12 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 02:55 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(10-03-2012 02:46 PM)Sol Wrote:  Oh my lord Odin, srsly.... this is how you think......

That is the worst kind of quizling, wishy washy, lack of joined up thinking one can come across....

Comparing the delusional, mythical, magical thinking of religious idiocy. with the mass slaughter of fellow human beings in the quest for christ-stain supremecy.
The torture and suffering of millions of people , is the same as a made up story about an ancient desert dwelling goat felcher.... really !!!

I don't know which is worse supporting genocide or supporting someone who supports the rights of genocide supporters to have a point of view...

I find the whole thing fucking weird........ That anyone could support that crap.

To be honest I find it weird that you seem to be equating how horrific a claim is with how readily we should believe it. It's like you think that we should believe any horrific claim just so we don't offend anyone. The world doesn't work like that. I believe the holocaust happens but I strongly disagree that it should be exempt from the rigours of scientific verification.

Also you seem like the worst type of hypocrite to me. You think that anyone who doesn't see the world as you do shouldn't be allowed an opinion because their opinion is wrong. Again, it's not how the world works.

I also didn't compare the holocaust to religion. I compared eye-witness testimony to eye-witness testimony. Seems like a fair comparison to me. I don't see how anyone can say that it's not reliable evidence on one topic and then suddenly the most reliable evidence going on another topic. Seems kinda inconsistent to say the least.

You also need to learn the difference between approving of a holocaust and not believing one happened. TheArcticSage is saying he doesn't believe it happened, I'm sure he's not condoning the concept though.

Scientific verifications to support the holocaust would be nice if you could supply them, as far as I have seen they are few in number (if at all). I doubt I'm going to be seeing any more scientific verifications to debunk the holocaust as it has become illegal to contest the holocaust in said countries with 'death' camps. Meaning that any scientist wishing to try and find evidence which would come in conflict with the holocaust would be arrested.

Which is unfair given that scientists could freely conduct experiments but only if the results were with agreement that the holocaust happened. (a more important reason why questioning the holocaust shouldn't be made illegal)

I certainly do not support genocide in any way shape or form. I don't even think the U.S. should have used nuclear bombs in World War II. Though they say it actually saved civilian (which may or may not be true) I find it hard to believe that they were concerned about that given their actions in Europe.

Still no conclusion on the amount of Japanese who died in U.S. concentration camps, all I find is that 'a number died due to a lack of medical attention' such was the answer on 5 sites I have visited. I mean... REALLY?! I know that! I know! I want a number! Give me an estimate if you must but I NEED A NUMBER! Some sites don't even talk about the death rates.

Regardless I will find a number.
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10-03-2012, 03:28 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
Nicely done, Hughsie.

I'm not equating the level of horror with level of accuracy.
I'm wondering how people can equate a fantasy belief like religion with truth, reason and fact.

Truth, reason and fact are based upon already examined evidence and are found to be so, based thereon.

Some things we can examine, re-examine and reappraise based upon new evidence or new information being found.

What we cannot do is make shit up in order to change established and well founded truths. (we need new evidence or information for that).

All of the stuff Arcticsage has come up with is.... made up stuff (not new evidence or information).

Now then, all the shit he comes up with is easily countered by study and research of the actual facts. BY HIMSELF.

Do you really think I should point out his errors for him or encourage him to think for himself ?

I can understand your point of view if it was a philosophical argument or a difference of opinion.
BUT IT ISN'T.
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10-03-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
(10-03-2012 03:28 PM)Sol Wrote:  Nicely done, Hughsie.

I'm not equating the level of horror with level of accuracy.
I'm wondering how people can equate a fantasy belief like religion with truth, reason and fact.

Truth, reason and fact are based upon already examined evidence and are found to be so, based thereon.

Some things we can examine, re-examine and reappraise based upon new evidence or new information being found.

What we cannot do is make shit up in order to change established and well founded truths. (we need new evidence or information for that).

All of the stuff Arcticsage has come up with is.... made up stuff (not new evidence or information).

Now then, all the shit he comes up with is easily countered by study and research of the actual facts. BY HIMSELF.

Do you really think I should point out his errors for him or encourage him to think for himself ?

I can understand your point of view if it was a philosophical argument or a difference of opinion.
BUT IT ISN'T.

Exactly! Point out inconsistencies in his evidence, present counter evidence, but don't just throw stones and assert that he's wrong.

And the point of view I've adopted here is exactly the same as the point of view most people adopt on other topics in this section. Any conspiracy theory has mounds of evidence against it and very little for, yet everyone still encourages pursuing them and considering the possibility that there is something to them. It seems that because this is a more controversial issue people won't apply the same prinicples. This is what I don't understand.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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10-03-2012, 03:38 PM
RE: Was the Holocaust... a lie?
If you have any doubt just go to google and search Evidence of Holocaust and look at the documentations, accounts, and photos they have at the United States Holocaust Museum. It's got a whole lot of photos and I couldn't sit there and keep looking for long.
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