Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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17-03-2013, 11:13 AM
Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug by Hero of Alexandria


I think everyone is familiar with the 'water to wine' miracle, which is a central Catholic 'proof' that Jesus was divine. But strangely enough, we also know that this famous event was a trick, rather than a miracle. Indeed, we even know who made this trick jug, and we have the original 1st century design too. It was a trick jug made by Hero of Alexandria, the 1st century's Leonardo da Vinci:

http://himedo.net/TheHopkinThomasProject...tion8.html

And so sucessful was this 'water to wine' trick, in 1st century Near Eastern aristocratic circles, that Hero made about a dozen different designs.


As Hero of Alexandria himself said of this trick:
"We may also pour in the water first, and then, stopping the vent, pour wine upon it, so as to pour out wine for some, wine and water for others, and mere water for those whom we wish to jest with."


Err, so this miracle was a jest, a joke, and the Catholic Church is effectively saying that David Copperfield and David Blaine are divine 'Sons of God', or something like that.

But I find this situation strange. We have known about Hero's trick jugs for centuries, so why has nobody before myself put forward the obvious deduction that Jesus himself was using one of these very same trick jugs? Ok, one can imagine the Catholics keeping it quiet, but what about all those 'honest' historians not tell us about this trick jug, that was used by the aristocracy and royalty of the Near East to entertain their guests? These are the aspects of this milennial deciet that I cannot understand.

So there we have it. It is more than likely that one of the central proofs of Jesus' divinity was based upon a 1st century party trick. However, this does also mean that the gospel records were based in part on real events, because the details are once more confirmed by history. It also implies that this gospel story was based upon royals or aristocrats, rather than pauper artisans - as I have long argued - for only the richest of families could employ David Copperfield or David Blaine to perform at their high-society wedding (at Cana - between Jesus and Mary Magdalene).


And again, I should point out that I am an Atheist searching for the historical truth, and not a believer shoring up a tottering belief system.

Ralph.

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17-03-2013, 11:52 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
And that's assuming the story ever happened or the character ever existed! Big Grin

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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17-03-2013, 12:05 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2013 12:30 PM by ralphellis.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(17-03-2013 11:52 AM)EGross Wrote:  And that's assuming the story ever happened or the character ever existed! Big Grin

But that does not extend the debate in any way, because you could say that about any historical figure.

I am sure that Cleopatra VII of Egypt was merely the scribes' having a bit of fun imagining what a female pharaoh would be like, and she was not real in any shape or form. Neither was Julius Caesar, who was merely a fictional creation to explain away the fall of the Roman Republic.


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17-03-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(17-03-2013 12:05 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(17-03-2013 11:52 AM)EGross Wrote:  And that's assuming the story ever happened or the character ever existed! Big Grin

But that does not extend the debate in any eay, because you could say that about any historical figure.

I am sure that Cleopatra VII of Egypt was merely the scribes' having a bit of fun imagining what a female pharaoh would be like, and she was not real in any shape or form. Neither was Julius Caesar, who was merely a fictional creation to explain away the fall of the Roman Republic.


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You seem confused about the nature of evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-03-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(17-03-2013 12:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  You seem confused about the nature of evidence.

Not at all. The truth is, that you are determined to divert attention away from the evidence, especially when the evidence points towards anything in the Bible being based upon reality.

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17-03-2013, 12:48 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
These documented miracles happened in a superstitious era, which is (sadly) including any time up until 100-200 years ago. There's a reason that modern illusionists used to be referred to as "magicians"... people didn't have any idea what an illusion was or that these were "tricks". It's thanks to Robert-Houdin in the mid-19th century that illusion stopped being used as a way to prove one's godly powers and started being used as entertainment.

While I wasn't familiar with the method behind turning water into wine, I saw Penn & Teller do it on their show Bullshit in an episode on the bible, among many other tricks (ahem, I mean "miracles") of the bible. So I'm not surprised that it was a common illusion.

As an atheist, I love illusion. Apparently my parents (who are Christian) are not so fond of it. I told them about a more recent show by Penn & Teller called "Fool Us" in which they had British illusionists demonstrate tricks in order to try to fool Penn & Teller -- if the famous illusionist duo couldn't figure out how the trick was done, then that illusionist would win a trip to Las Vegas to perform with Penn & Teller in front of an American audience. As I told my parents about the show, my mother asked, "so what if the trick is real? How could it be guessed?" I just laughed. My mother is apparently still superstitious.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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17-03-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(17-03-2013 12:05 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  I am sure that Cleopatra VII of Egypt was merely the scribes' having a bit of fun imagining what a female pharaoh would be like, and she was not real in any shape or form. Neither was Julius Caesar, who was merely a fictional creation to explain away the fall of the Roman Republic.

This is reductio ad absurdum. You're straw-manning EGross' position by suggesting that EGross is arguing that no historical fact or person is proveable.

I understand your frustration, as one must at least accept the miracle story as hypothetically true in order to accept that it was natural rather than supernatural, so suggesting that the story may not have happened is just a red herring; it has no relevance to your argument. But this reply is just as illogical.

You'd probably be taken more seriously if you'd study up on logical fallacies. For an educated man, you make far too many of them.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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17-03-2013, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2013 01:48 PM by ralphellis.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(17-03-2013 12:55 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  You're straw-manning EGross' position by suggesting that EGross is arguing that no historical fact or person is proveable.

No, I am straw-manning Gross because he will not apply the same criteria and evidence to biblical events and characters, as he will to presumed 'historical' characters. If evidence for a historical event is given, there will be engrossed (sic) discussion. If evidence for a biblical event is given, the stock answer is: "don't be absurd, none of this happened anyway", together with a little laughter icon.


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17-03-2013, 01:26 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2013 01:36 PM by ralphellis.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(17-03-2013 12:48 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  These documented miracles happened in a superstitious era, which is (sadly) including any time up until 100-200 years ago. There's a reason that modern illusionists used to be referred to as "magicians"... people didn't have any idea what an illusion was or that these were "tricks".

This is what theists would like you to believe, just as they would like you to believe that this was an illiterate era and these biblical-type events could only have been an oral tradition for at keast a century (despite the evidence of Josephus Flavius writing copious books at this time, as did Justas of Tiberias with his History of the Kings of Judaea, and Balaam's Chronicle of Judaea).

In reality, this was a highly literate and scientific era. Hero of Alexandria was experimenting with fire engines, magnets, automatic doors, slot machines, odometers, automotons and steam turbines (and trick water-to-wine jugs). While elsewhere someone contructed the Antikythera astrolabe, a clockwork mechanism of such complexity and precision that it would not be bettered until Harison made the H5.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

And do also remember that Judaeo-Syria was not a backwater of the Empire. Many of the Empire's largest and richest cities are located in modern Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. The abject poverty we see today, is the result of a millenium of Islamic misrule, and nothing to do with the region's economic and educational potential.

Within the upper classes of 1st century Syrio-Judaea, the secular and scientific nature of magic was well understood. It was only the ever-deceitful Saul-Paul who took that magic out to the masses and sold it as a miracle. And, just as in the Russian Revolution, it was the ignorant (in this case Catholic) masses that won this religious revolution, while Sabaean-Nazarene science and wisdom was consigned to the dustbin of history. In doing so, Saul probably put the development of science and civilisation back by some 1,500 years. Were it not for Saul, it is possible that the first Moon landing could have been made in AD 350.


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17-03-2013, 11:23 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(17-03-2013 01:26 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  This is what theists would like you to believe, just as they would like you to believe that this was an illiterate era...

In reality, this was a highly literate and scientific era....
(17-03-2013 01:26 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Within the upper classes of 1st century Syrio-Judaea, the secular and scientific nature of magic was well understood. It was only the ever-deceitful Saul-Paul who took that magic out to the masses and sold it as a miracle.
It was an illiterate era. Without public school, free access to books and writing utensils, and general uselessness of such education to people who would physically labor from childhood through adulthood, "the masses" were illiterate. You're focusing on a smaller group of people ("the upper classes") and pretending that they were the ones being shown "miracles".

And "it was only the ever-deceitful" person of your theological focus who took magic to the masses? What about other saviors of the day, such as Apollonius of Tyana?

I hate discussing anything with you. You are so incredibly narrow-minded. I corrected your logical fallacy and then you just make another with a prejudiced assumption of EGross ("he will not apply the same criteria"), who as I read it made a very short statement that doesn't allow you to expand that much on. But go ahead, just keep pretending that you can't be mistaken or that your every opinion came from reason. You provide wonderful examples of cognitive dissonance that I'll probably be citing in the near future.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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