Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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04-04-2013, 05:09 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 05:17 AM by ralphellis.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
.

And just and an aside, Islam always operates a religious apartheid when they have full control of a region, especially against Jews. Here is a road sign near Mecca, warning all non-Muslims to avoid the city. The penalty for ignoring this, would be a swift summary justice by the mob.

[Image: mecca-muslims-only-road-sign.JPG]


This has been the policy since Islam invaded Mesopotamia, Syria, Turkey and Judaea. Modern liberals like to pretend that there was cooperation and peace between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, but in reality the Muslims controlled the army and ruled, while the kuffer non-Muslims were dhimmi serfs who payed the jizya taxes. The Covenant of Dhimmitude at Mardin (now in Turkey) lists the priviliges and restrictions placed upon all non-Muslims. Some of these were generous (churches did not have to pay tax) while most were onerous (kuffers could not be judges, testimony was not accepted in court, blood money was half that of a Muslim, were not allowed to use saddles, could not join the army, had to pay extra jizya taxes etc: etc: )



.
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04-04-2013, 05:16 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
I can't buy the idea Josephus=Paul=the gospel authors.

I think all 3+ were batting for the same team....the Roman government....under Vespasian and Titus' direction, but they weren't the same men. ( In any case, the gospels evolved over 200 years, so to attribute them to one author is very problematic.)

There is a really good podcast here,
http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/the_...roved.html ,

about Vespasian, and what a great propagandist he was.

Ralph, this podcast backs up some of what you, Atwill and I have been saying....so if you haven't already heard it, have a listen.
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04-04-2013, 05:22 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
"12 1 At Jerusalem he founded a city in place of the one which had been razed to the ground, naming it Aelia Capitolina, and on the site of the temple of the god he raised a new temple to Jupiter. This brought on a war of no slight importance nor of brief duration, 2 for the Jews deemed it intolerable that foreign races should be settled in their city and foreign religious rites planted there. So long, indeed, as Hadrian was close by in Egypt and again in Syria, they remained quiet, save in so far as they purposely made of poor quality such weapons as they were called upon to furnish, in order that the Romans might reject them and they themselves might thus have the use of them; but when he went farther away, they openly revolted. 3 To be sure, they did not dare try conclusions with the Romans in the open field, but they occupied the advantageous positions in the country and strengthened them with mines and walls, in order that they might have places of refuge whenever they should be hard pressed, and might meet together unobserved under ground; and they pierced these subterranean passages from above at intervals to let in air and light.
13 1 At first the Romans took no account of them. Soon, however, all Judaea had been stirred up, and the Jews everywhere were showing signs of disturbance, were gathering together, and giving evidence of great hostility to the Romans, partly by secret and partly by overt acts; 2 many outside nations, too, were joining them through eagerness for gain, and the whole earth, one might almost say, was being stirred up over the matter. Then, indeed, Hadrian sent against them his best generals. First of these was Julius Severus, who was dispatched from Britain, where he was governor, against the Jews. 3 Severus did not venture to attack his opponents in the open at any one point, in view of their numbers and their desperation, but by intercepting small groups, thanks to the number of his soldiers and his under-officers, and by depriving them of food and shutting them up, he was able, rather slowly, to be sure, but with comparatively little danger, to crush, exhaust and exterminate them. Very few of them in fact survived. 14 1 Fifty of their most important outposts and nine hundred and eighty-five of their most famous villages were razed to the ground. Five hundred and eighty thousand men were slain in the various raids and battles, and the number of those that perished by famine, disease and fire was past finding out. 2 Thus nearly the whole of Judaea was made desolate, a result of which the people had had forewarning before the war. For the tomb of Solomon, which the Jews regard as an object of veneration, fell to pieces of itself and collapsed, and many wolves and hyenas rushed howling into their cities. 3 Many Romans, moreover, perished in this war. Therefore Hadrian in writing to the senate did not employ the opening phrase commonly affected by the emperors, "If you and our children are in health, it is well; I and the legions are in health."

4 He sent Severus into Bithynia, which needed no armed force but a governor and leader who was just and prudent and a man of rank. All this qualifications Severus possessed. And he managed and administer both their private and their public affairs in such a manner that we are still, even to‑day, wont to remember him. Pamphylia, in place Bithynia, was given to the senate and made assignable by lot.

15 1 This, then, was the end of the war with the Jews."
Cassius Dio 69.12 ff

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-04-2013, 06:34 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(04-04-2013 05:22 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "12 1 At Jerusalem he founded a city in place of the one which had been razed to the ground, naming it Aelia Capitolina, and on the site of the temple of the god he raised a new temple to Jupiter. This brought on a war of no slight importance nor of brief duration, 2 for the Jews deemed it intolerable that foreign races should be settled in their city and foreign religious rites planted there. So long, indeed, as Hadrian was close by in Egypt and again in Syria, they remained quiet, save in so far as they purposely made of poor quality such weapons as they were called upon to furnish, in order that the Romans might reject them and they themselves might thus have the use of them; but when he went farther away, they openly revolted. 3 To be sure, they did not dare try conclusions with the Romans in the open field, but they occupied the advantageous positions in the country and strengthened them with mines and walls, in order that they might have places of refuge whenever they should be hard pressed, and might meet together unobserved under ground; and they pierced these subterranean passages from above at intervals to let in air and light.
13 1 At first the Romans took no account of them. Soon, however, all Judaea had been stirred up, and the Jews everywhere were showing signs of disturbance, were gathering together, and giving evidence of great hostility to the Romans, partly by secret and partly by overt acts; 2 many outside nations, too, were joining them through eagerness for gain, and the whole earth, one might almost say, was being stirred up over the matter. Then, indeed, Hadrian sent against them his best generals. First of these was Julius Severus, who was dispatched from Britain, where he was governor, against the Jews. 3 Severus did not venture to attack his opponents in the open at any one point, in view of their numbers and their desperation, but by intercepting small groups, thanks to the number of his soldiers and his under-officers, and by depriving them of food and shutting them up, he was able, rather slowly, to be sure, but with comparatively little danger, to crush, exhaust and exterminate them. Very few of them in fact survived. 14 1 Fifty of their most important outposts and nine hundred and eighty-five of their most famous villages were razed to the ground. Five hundred and eighty thousand men were slain in the various raids and battles, and the number of those that perished by famine, disease and fire was past finding out. 2 Thus nearly the whole of Judaea was made desolate, a result of which the people had had forewarning before the war. For the tomb of Solomon, which the Jews regard as an object of veneration, fell to pieces of itself and collapsed, and many wolves and hyenas rushed howling into their cities. 3 Many Romans, moreover, perished in this war. Therefore Hadrian in writing to the senate did not employ the opening phrase commonly affected by the emperors, "If you and our children are in health, it is well; I and the legions are in health."

4 He sent Severus into Bithynia, which needed no armed force but a governor and leader who was just and prudent and a man of rank. All this qualifications Severus possessed. And he managed and administer both their private and their public affairs in such a manner that we are still, even to‑day, wont to remember him. Pamphylia, in place Bithynia, was given to the senate and made assignable by lot.

15 1 This, then, was the end of the war with the Jews."
Cassius Dio 69.12 ff

BB, this is baloney! You have no evidence for this whatsoever. This all never happened.

Sound familiar? You can talk all you want about higher textual criticism and what you erroneously perceive as inaccuracies and contradictions, but you simply have an inherent bias as to which ancient documents you give credence to.
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04-04-2013, 06:36 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 06:52 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(04-04-2013 06:34 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 05:22 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "12 1 At Jerusalem he founded a city in place of the one which had been razed to the ground, naming it Aelia Capitolina, and on the site of the temple of the god he raised a new temple to Jupiter. This brought on a war of no slight importance nor of brief duration, 2 for the Jews deemed it intolerable that foreign races should be settled in their city and foreign religious rites planted there. So long, indeed, as Hadrian was close by in Egypt and again in Syria, they remained quiet, save in so far as they purposely made of poor quality such weapons as they were called upon to furnish, in order that the Romans might reject them and they themselves might thus have the use of them; but when he went farther away, they openly revolted. 3 To be sure, they did not dare try conclusions with the Romans in the open field, but they occupied the advantageous positions in the country and strengthened them with mines and walls, in order that they might have places of refuge whenever they should be hard pressed, and might meet together unobserved under ground; and they pierced these subterranean passages from above at intervals to let in air and light.
13 1 At first the Romans took no account of them. Soon, however, all Judaea had been stirred up, and the Jews everywhere were showing signs of disturbance, were gathering together, and giving evidence of great hostility to the Romans, partly by secret and partly by overt acts; 2 many outside nations, too, were joining them through eagerness for gain, and the whole earth, one might almost say, was being stirred up over the matter. Then, indeed, Hadrian sent against them his best generals. First of these was Julius Severus, who was dispatched from Britain, where he was governor, against the Jews. 3 Severus did not venture to attack his opponents in the open at any one point, in view of their numbers and their desperation, but by intercepting small groups, thanks to the number of his soldiers and his under-officers, and by depriving them of food and shutting them up, he was able, rather slowly, to be sure, but with comparatively little danger, to crush, exhaust and exterminate them. Very few of them in fact survived. 14 1 Fifty of their most important outposts and nine hundred and eighty-five of their most famous villages were razed to the ground. Five hundred and eighty thousand men were slain in the various raids and battles, and the number of those that perished by famine, disease and fire was past finding out. 2 Thus nearly the whole of Judaea was made desolate, a result of which the people had had forewarning before the war. For the tomb of Solomon, which the Jews regard as an object of veneration, fell to pieces of itself and collapsed, and many wolves and hyenas rushed howling into their cities. 3 Many Romans, moreover, perished in this war. Therefore Hadrian in writing to the senate did not employ the opening phrase commonly affected by the emperors, "If you and our children are in health, it is well; I and the legions are in health."

4 He sent Severus into Bithynia, which needed no armed force but a governor and leader who was just and prudent and a man of rank. All this qualifications Severus possessed. And he managed and administer both their private and their public affairs in such a manner that we are still, even to‑day, wont to remember him. Pamphylia, in place Bithynia, was given to the senate and made assignable by lot.

15 1 This, then, was the end of the war with the Jews."
Cassius Dio 69.12 ff

BB, this is baloney! You have no evidence for this whatsoever. This all never happened.

Sound familiar? You can talk all you want about higher textual criticism and what you erroneously perceive as inaccuracies and contradictions, but you simply have an inherent bias as to which ancient documents you give credence to.

References idiot, or you can just keep talking out your fat ass.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-04-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
Quote:References idiot, or you can just keep talking out your fat ass.
I'm referencing YOU. First you say there are Bible contradictions, then I point out the full verses as required in context, then you say NONE of it is true, which means that you NEVER HAD A CONTRADICTION.

Now you are arrogant and cherry pick your ancient texts. If it's a non-supernatural text, it must be true, right?

"Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia." - A. Lincoln
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04-04-2013, 10:59 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 06:02 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
*****

Those who administer and moderate in order to exercise personal agenda merely feed into the negative stereotype of Atheism
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04-04-2013, 06:27 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 06:31 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(04-04-2013 06:34 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(04-04-2013 05:22 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "12 1 At Jerusalem he founded a city in place of the one which had been razed to the ground, naming it Aelia Capitolina, and on the site of the temple of the god he raised a new temple to Jupiter. This brought on a war of no slight importance nor of brief duration, 2 for the Jews deemed it intolerable that foreign races should be settled in their city and foreign religious rites planted there. So long, indeed, as Hadrian was close by in Egypt and again in Syria, they remained quiet, save in so far as they purposely made of poor quality such weapons as they were called upon to furnish, in order that the Romans might reject them and they themselves might thus have the use of them; but when he went farther away, they openly revolted. 3 To be sure, they did not dare try conclusions with the Romans in the open field, but they occupied the advantageous positions in the country and strengthened them with mines and walls, in order that they might have places of refuge whenever they should be hard pressed, and might meet together unobserved under ground; and they pierced these subterranean passages from above at intervals to let in air and light.
13 1 At first the Romans took no account of them. Soon, however, all Judaea had been stirred up, and the Jews everywhere were showing signs of disturbance, were gathering together, and giving evidence of great hostility to the Romans, partly by secret and partly by overt acts; 2 many outside nations, too, were joining them through eagerness for gain, and the whole earth, one might almost say, was being stirred up over the matter. Then, indeed, Hadrian sent against them his best generals. First of these was Julius Severus, who was dispatched from Britain, where he was governor, against the Jews. 3 Severus did not venture to attack his opponents in the open at any one point, in view of their numbers and their desperation, but by intercepting small groups, thanks to the number of his soldiers and his under-officers, and by depriving them of food and shutting them up, he was able, rather slowly, to be sure, but with comparatively little danger, to crush, exhaust and exterminate them. Very few of them in fact survived. 14 1 Fifty of their most important outposts and nine hundred and eighty-five of their most famous villages were razed to the ground. Five hundred and eighty thousand men were slain in the various raids and battles, and the number of those that perished by famine, disease and fire was past finding out. 2 Thus nearly the whole of Judaea was made desolate, a result of which the people had had forewarning before the war. For the tomb of Solomon, which the Jews regard as an object of veneration, fell to pieces of itself and collapsed, and many wolves and hyenas rushed howling into their cities. 3 Many Romans, moreover, perished in this war. Therefore Hadrian in writing to the senate did not employ the opening phrase commonly affected by the emperors, "If you and our children are in health, it is well; I and the legions are in health."

4 He sent Severus into Bithynia, which needed no armed force but a governor and leader who was just and prudent and a man of rank. All this qualifications Severus possessed. And he managed and administer both their private and their public affairs in such a manner that we are still, even to‑day, wont to remember him. Pamphylia, in place Bithynia, was given to the senate and made assignable by lot.

15 1 This, then, was the end of the war with the Jews."
Cassius Dio 69.12 ff

BB, this is baloney! You have no evidence for this whatsoever. This all never happened.

Sound familiar? You can talk all you want about higher textual criticism and what you erroneously perceive as inaccuracies and contradictions, but you simply have an inherent bias as to which ancient documents you give credence to.

RE...."BB, this is baloney! You have no evidence for this whatsoever."

Huh! ???? Don't you know how to use google? This is well established historical fact. What's your problem with this? Check it out, in context, at

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Ro...o/69*.html

An historian such as Cassius isn't trying to talk credulous people into joining a cult. There are no resurrections, miracles, threats of hell, promises of heaven etc, which there are in the gospels. We know who the author is, unlike the gospels. The facts are easily checked from other, non related, unbiased sources, unlike the gospels.
There's no evidence of editing and interpolation, as there are in the gospels.

Start employing brain , PJ. It's not rocket science.
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04-04-2013, 06:34 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(04-04-2013 10:49 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:References idiot, or you can just keep talking out your fat ass.
I'm referencing YOU. First you say there are Bible contradictions, then I point out the full verses as required in context, then you say NONE of it is true, which means that you NEVER HAD A CONTRADICTION.

Now you are arrogant and cherry pick your ancient texts. If it's a non-supernatural text, it must be true, right?

"Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia." - A. Lincoln

Nice try at your deflection game, and your rationalizations. The TEXTS can contradict even if they are not historically accurate. Get it, idiot ? I doubt it.
Your bottomless bag of Presupposisionalist crap tricks is going on empty. Tongue
I can try to get you into a Community College or a GED program.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-04-2013, 07:05 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
I'm reading alla that Dio stuff. Thumbsup

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