Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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12-04-2013, 01:41 PM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 05:37 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(12-04-2013 07:25 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:As I hope you can see from these long discussions, academics are full of bluster and vitriol rather than knowledge, and so the history of 1st century Judaea is far from settled.
Got to disagree with Chas here, since I'm still in academia. If only he and BB would admit the truth of the above...

And if the hx of the First Century is far from settled, then the default position would be to withold judgement. That's precisely what SexuallyPleasingJebus has NOT done. It's also called an Argument form Ignorance. Weeping
Don't bore your congregation to tears Pleasy this weekend, with another crappy sermon.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-04-2013, 11:16 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(07-04-2013 03:36 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  ..

Here is the textural analysis of the New Testament I was looking for. It is a 2005 analysis, so some 7 years after mine.

Lena Einhorn here compares the NT and Josephus, with the implication that this is the same material. In some respects her analysis is more convincing than mine, as she uses bar-charts to document the events on a chronological time scale. It graphically demonstrates what I have been saying.

Her conclusion, of course, is that the NT events happened in the AD 60s, and there are great similarities between Luke-Acts and Josephus. It is well worth a read.


Lena Einhorn, PhD
http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/uploads....11.25.pdf




Here is Einhorn's chronological comparison of the Mount of Olives battle.
Note that the gospels give an AD 30s date (as they would have to do), while Josephus gives as AD 60s date (which is the correct answer).

.

I 've read this twice. Interesting.
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12-04-2013, 11:30 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(07-04-2013 04:12 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(06-04-2013 08:51 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi Ralph, I'm not convinced Johannan ben Zakkai wrote the talmud under Josephus' direction. I can't see anywhere that Johannan ben Zakkai is considered to be the author of the Talmud, despite me looking at numerous articles about this.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14213-talmud
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Ra...muds.shtml

Didn't Josephus and this character live in different parts of the world?


There were two Talmuds, the Babylonian and the Jerusalem Talmuds. About half of the 1st century comments in the Talmud are by Johannan ben Zakkai - and he was in Jerusalem during the siege in AD 70, and so he it intimately connected to this city and to these events.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Talmud

And if you think that someone remembered all of Johannan's complicated observations for 100 years before they were written down, you have another think coming. The Jews wrote everything down, and Johannan would have done likewise.

And the primary scriptorium and sanhedrin in this era was the Roman controlled institute run by Josephus in Jabneh, where all the other texts were written. Which is one of many reasons why Johannan is Josephus. And if you think modern Judaism is going to acknowledge that their religion was founded by the duplicitous Saul-Josephus, there is another thought coming your way.


As an aside, the Babylonian Talmud was written in Pumbetheta in Iraq. This city is now called Fallujah, and how many Jews are left there today after the Muslim persecution and exile of the Babylonian Jews? Some 500,000 were exiled after 1947, ending 2,500 years of Iraq being substantially Jewish.




(06-04-2013 08:51 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Also, I can't imagine that Josephus helped install Vespasian on the Roman throne. Surely it was Vespasian who provided Josephus with his power and legitimacy, not the other way around.


Far from it. Saul-Josephus was not only an aristocrat and army commander, he was also (pretending to be) a prophet with considerable powers of foresight. This was a man who, although a Jewish captive, was influential enough to see Vespasian and Titus in private and tell them that he had been sent by god himself to bestow the emperorship upon Vespasian.

This is why I said earlier that Johannan ben Zakkai bestowed the emperorship upon Vespasian, because as ambassadors of god, that is exactly what they both did. Both Johannan and Josephus held the divine power to bestow the Star Prophesy upon Vespasian - and yet the Star Prophesy originally belonged to Jesus.

And since the surrender of both Josephus Flavius and Johannan ben Zakkai were remarkably similar, and their meeting before Vespasian was almost identical, you can see why I say they were the same person. The only difference is that Johannan surrendered at Jerusalem while Josephus surrendered at Jotapata.


When Josephus heard him give those orders, he said that he had
somewhat in his mind that he would willingly say to himself alone. When
therefore they were all ordered to withdraw, excepting Titus and two of
their friends, he said, "Thou, O Vespasian, thinkest no more than
that thou hast taken Josephus himself captive; but I come to thee as a
messenger of greater tidings; for had not I been sent by God to thee
,
I knew what was the law of the Jews in this case?

Thou, O Vespasian, art Caesar and emperor,
thou, and this thy son. Bind me now still faster,
and keep me for thyself, for thou, O Caesar, are not only lord over me,
but over the land and the sea, and all mankind; and certainly I deserve
to be kept in closer custody than I now am in, in order to be punished,
if I rashly affirm any thing of God."

When he had said this, Vespasian
at present did not believe him, but supposed that Josephus said this as
a cunning trick, in order to his own preservation; but in a little time
he was convinced, and believed what he said to be true, God himself
erecting his expectations, so as to think of obtaining the empire, and
by other signs fore-showing his advancement.
JW 3:8:9




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Hi Ralph, your article on the Jerusalem talmud doesn't mention the name Johannan ben Zakkai. Can you substantiate your claim he wrote half the comments in it?

Re
"And the primary scriptorium and sanhedrin in this era was the Roman controlled institute run by Josephus in Jabneh, where all the other texts were written. Which is one of many reasons why Johannan is Josephus."
I've never heard this...you may be right. Your source ?
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13-04-2013, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2013 09:45 AM by ralphellis.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(12-04-2013 11:16 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(07-04-2013 03:36 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  ..

Here is the textural analysis of the New Testament I was looking for. It is a 2005 analysis, so some 7 years after mine, by Lena Einhorn
Lena Einhorn, PhD
http://lenaeinhorn.se/wp-content/uploads....11.25.pdf

I 've read this twice. Interesting.

Yes, its good, isn't it. It lays out everything I have said in a graphical format that is very convincing. Better than that, she did all of this without knowing about the hypothesis for Saul being Josephus, and yet what she demonstrates here backs this theory up perfectly.






(12-04-2013 11:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi Ralph, your article on the Jerusalem talmud doesn't mention the name Johannan ben Zakkai. Can you substantiate your claim he wrote half the comments in it?

Re
"And the primary scriptorium and sanhedrin in this era was the Roman controlled institute run by Josephus in Jabneh, where all the other texts were written. Which is one of many reasons why Johannan is Josephus."
I've never heard this...you may be right. Your source ?

Nothing can be 'fully substantiated', it is all 'circumstantial but compelling'.

Johannan was the most prolific author of the Talmud, and he was the 1st century leader of Judaism after the Jewish Revolt (having surrendered to Vespasian in the same manner as Josephus did.) But where did he lead Judaism from? From Jabneh, west of Jerusalem near the Mediterranean. This established university became the new Judaean sanhedrin.

But what happened to Josephus after the Revolt? Well, because his properties in Jerusalem had been confiscated, Vespasian gave him new properties down in the plain west of Jerusalem - where he could write his books. And if you go west of Jerusalem, you end up at the university, sanhedrin and scriptorium of Jabneh.


Q.E.D. I feel.


.
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13-04-2013, 09:54 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(13-04-2013 09:36 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Yes, its good, isn't it. It lays out everything I have said in a graphical format that is very convincing. Better than that, she did all of this without knowing about the hypothesis for Saul being Josephus, and yet what she demonstrates here backs this theory up perfectly.

Yep. I got it in me iBooks. Thumbsup

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13-04-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
Ralph, what do you think of Atwill's theory that Jesus is, in fact, Titus?
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13-04-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(13-04-2013 09:36 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 11:16 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I 've read this twice. Interesting.

Yes, its good, isn't it. It lays out everything I have said in a graphical format that is very convincing. Better than that, she did all of this without knowing about the hypothesis for Saul being Josephus, and yet what she demonstrates here backs this theory up perfectly.






(12-04-2013 11:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi Ralph, your article on the Jerusalem talmud doesn't mention the name Johannan ben Zakkai. Can you substantiate your claim he wrote half the comments in it?

Re
"And the primary scriptorium and sanhedrin in this era was the Roman controlled institute run by Josephus in Jabneh, where all the other texts were written. Which is one of many reasons why Johannan is Josephus."
I've never heard this...you may be right. Your source ?

Nothing can be 'fully substantiated', it is all 'circumstantial but compelling'.

Johannan was the most prolific author of the Talmud, and he was the 1st century leader of Judaism after the Jewish Revolt (having surrendered to Vespasian in the same manner as Josephus did.) But where did he lead Judaism from? From Jabneh, west of Jerusalem near the Mediterranean. This established university became the new Judaean sanhedrin.

But what happened to Josephus after the Revolt? Well, because his properties in Jerusalem had been confiscated, Vespasian gave him new properties down in the plain west of Jerusalem - where he could write his books. And if you go west of Jerusalem, you end up at the university, sanhedrin and scriptorium of Jabneh.


Q.E.D. I feel.


.

Ralph, is there evidence Josephus lived west of Jerusalem? I always thought that he lived in Rome (after the war).
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13-04-2013, 06:59 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(13-04-2013 09:36 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 11:16 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I 've read this twice. Interesting.

Yes, its good, isn't it. It lays out everything I have said in a graphical format that is very convincing. Better than that, she did all of this without knowing about the hypothesis for Saul being Josephus, and yet what she demonstrates here backs this theory up perfectly.






(12-04-2013 11:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi Ralph, your article on the Jerusalem talmud doesn't mention the name Johannan ben Zakkai. Can you substantiate your claim he wrote half the comments in it?

Re
"And the primary scriptorium and sanhedrin in this era was the Roman controlled institute run by Josephus in Jabneh, where all the other texts were written. Which is one of many reasons why Johannan is Josephus."
I've never heard this...you may be right. Your source ?

Nothing can be 'fully substantiated', it is all 'circumstantial but compelling'.

Johannan was the most prolific author of the Talmud, and he was the 1st century leader of Judaism after the Jewish Revolt (having surrendered to Vespasian in the same manner as Josephus did.) But where did he lead Judaism from? From Jabneh, west of Jerusalem near the Mediterranean. This established university became the new Judaean sanhedrin.

But what happened to Josephus after the Revolt? Well, because his properties in Jerusalem had been confiscated, Vespasian gave him new properties down in the plain west of Jerusalem - where he could write his books. And if you go west of Jerusalem, you end up at the university, sanhedrin and scriptorium of Jabneh.


Q.E.D. I feel.


.

So, Ralph, perhaps instead of writing
"Johannan was the most prolific author of the Talmud,"
wouldn't it be better to write
" I think Johannan could have been the most prolific author of the Jewish Talmud because..., although it must be admitted that is not known with any certainty who the author(s) of this document were"

You could then say

"It's therefore possible that Josephus had a hand in the writing of the Talmud because…"

If you phrased your commentary like this, people (Chas for example) would have a much better chance of following your arguments. As it is, when your statements are checked for their validity, it's extremely difficult to trace your traii of thought.

I hope this doesn't sound patronising, because it's not intended to be.
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14-04-2013, 02:16 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(13-04-2013 06:37 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Ralph, is there evidence Josephus lived west of Jerusalem? I always thought that he lived in Rome (after the war).


Well (Saul) Josephus was given land west of Jerusalem (Jabneh) by Vespasian and Titus. One would presume that he used these new properties.

And you have to remember who and what (Saul) Josephus was. He was an obsessive with authoring Jewish history, Jewish culture and Jewish religion, and he was an egotist who was power-crazy too. So where would he be most happy - exiled in Rome, or leading the remnants of the Jewish people as the de-facto high priest and king of (a ruined) Judaea?

And this was a king who was not above revising culture to suit himself. Nazarene Judaism was turned into Simple Judaism (Christianity) while Orthodox Judaism was turned into Modern Judaism (no roast sacrifices etc: ). So who did all this? Saul-Josephus, of course.

Why do you think he chose the name Saul?


.
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14-04-2013, 02:34 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(13-04-2013 06:59 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  wouldn't it be better to write
" I think Johannan could have been the most prolific author of the Jewish Talmud because..., although it must be admitted that is not known with any certainty who the author(s) of this document were"

You could then say

"It's therefore possible that Josephus had a hand in the writing of the Talmud because…"

I hope this doesn't sound patronising, because it's not intended to be.


As is usual, what I say is true. People may not agree with the interpretation I have placed on it, but what I say is true.

If you read the Talmud, especially the sections about 1st century politics, the rabbi most often quoted is Johannan ben Zakkai. And as I said before, it is absurd to think that these many complex arguments were only an oral record for more than a century. The Jews in general and Saul-Josephus in particular were prolific authors, and so it is axiomatic that all these observations were written down in the late 1st century.

In addition, if Saul-Josephus was the leader of Judaism (as Johannan), it is also axiomatic that he would have been rewriting the commentary, social history and law of Judaism, which is what the Talmud represents. Just as Saul-Josephus rewrote the Tanakh, with his Antiquities of the Jews, he also rewrote the Tanakh commentary, the Talmud.

And as the Jewish leader after the Jewish Revolt, Saul-Josephus was the master of all he surveyed, and if there were any documents that he did not like, they could be destroyed. And this is exactly what happened to the History of Judaea by Justus of Tiberias - Saul-Josephus' greatest enemy. And the History of Judaea by Balaam (the biblical Jesus) also disappeared. So we only have Saul-Josephus' word for everything that happened in the 1st century, and we know that that word was highly biased.

History may be correct that the final editing of the Talmud happened in the 3rd century, but it was done by utilising pre-existing documents.


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