Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
Thread Closed 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-03-2013, 12:30 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
Just in case someone hasn't seen this before.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB1N3hW4hXg
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
[+] 1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post
18-03-2013, 02:58 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2013 03:05 AM by ralphellis.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(17-03-2013 11:23 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  It was an illiterate era. Without public school, free access to books and writing utensils, and general uselessness of such education to people who would physically labor from childhood through adulthood, "the masses" were illiterate. You're focusing on a smaller group of people ("the upper classes") and pretending that they were the ones being shown "miracles".

I hate discussing anything with you. You are so incredibly narrow-minded.

You hate discussing anything with me because I win every argument.

You mention 'the masses' as if you believe that Jesus really was a pauper carpenter. Do you really believe this? Even after the gospels say he was high priest of Jerusalem and a king? After the Talmud says he was connected to the aristocracy and royalty? After the Talmud says that Mary Magdalene (Mary Boethus) was the richest woman in Judaea?

As a King of the Jews** it is axiomatic that Jesus was primarily preaching to the aristocracy of Judaea. This is why kings like Herod (Herod Archelous) were afraid of this new prince. They were not afraid of a new carpenter, but they may well have been afraid of a new prince who could prove his royal credentials.

And you totally disregard the history of Judaic education. The Jews have long coveted the education of their children, which is why the bar-mitzvah contained a test of the candidate by the local rabbi. And we know that this test was used in the 1st century, because both Jesus and Josephus Flavius amazed the rabbis with their knowledge at the age of twelve. With Jesus this is used as yet another 'miracle', when it was only a standard bar-mitzvah test of education. You also disregard the evidence that Qumran was primarily a yeshivah - a Jewish boarding school (you try sitting at the Qumran writing desks!). Qumran was not a scriptorium, that is for sure, it was a yeshivah.

Thus when Jesus used a trick water-to-wine jug at his wedding to Mary Magdalene at Cana (the Talmud confirms that Jesus of Gamala married Mary Magdalene-Boethus), he was entertaining an audience who were very wealthy and highly educated. But as we know today, even the most wealthy and educated of audiences can be entertained by David Copperfield or David Blaine. I like to think I am well versed in every scientific process and technique, but still I am left scratching my head sometimes at their tricks.

But that is the whole point of magic entertainment, and a 1st century audience would have been totally flummoxed at Hero of Alexandria's mechanical expertise. How many educated 1st century people would have been familiar with water surface tension and the siphonic action? None, one would suspect. And so Hero of Alexandria could entertain the grandest houses and the richest of temples, which is how he earned his living.

But the bottom line here, is that we have a biblical description of his trick jugs, which means that some of the information in the gospel stories was based upon real historical events.

** Actually King Jesus EmManuel (King Izas Manu) of Edessa-Adiabene.


.
Find all posts by this user
18-03-2013, 03:05 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(18-03-2013 12:30 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Just in case someone hasn't seen this before.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB1N3hW4hXg


Excellent.

But I am still waiting for Rowan's sketch about Muhummad and his Dead Poet's Society. Must be some humour in that one, surely.... ;-)


.
Find all posts by this user
18-03-2013, 08:04 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(18-03-2013 02:58 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(17-03-2013 11:23 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  It was an illiterate era. Without public school, free access to books and writing utensils, and general uselessness of such education to people who would physically labor from childhood through adulthood, "the masses" were illiterate. You're focusing on a smaller group of people ("the upper classes") and pretending that they were the ones being shown "miracles".

I hate discussing anything with you. You are so incredibly narrow-minded.

You hate discussing anything with me because I win every argument.

You mention 'the masses' as if you believe that Jesus really was a pauper carpenter. Do you really believe this? Even after the gospels say he was high priest of Jerusalem and a king? After the Talmud says he was connected to the aristocracy and royalty? After the Talmud says that Mary Magdalene (Mary Boethus) was the richest woman in Judaea?

As a King of the Jews** it is axiomatic that Jesus was primarily preaching to the aristocracy of Judaea. This is why kings like Herod (Herod Archelous) were afraid of this new prince. They were not afraid of a new carpenter, but they may well have been afraid of a new prince who could prove his royal credentials.

And you totally disregard the history of Judaic education. The Jews have long coveted the education of their children, which is why the bar-mitzvah contained a test of the candidate by the local rabbi. And we know that this test was used in the 1st century, because both Jesus and Josephus Flavius amazed the rabbis with their knowledge at the age of twelve. With Jesus this is used as yet another 'miracle', when it was only a standard bar-mitzvah test of education. You also disregard the evidence that Qumran was primarily a yeshivah - a Jewish boarding school (you try sitting at the Qumran writing desks!). Qumran was not a scriptorium, that is for sure, it was a yeshivah.

Thus when Jesus used a trick water-to-wine jug at his wedding to Mary Magdalene at Cana (the Talmud confirms that Jesus of Gamala married Mary Magdalene-Boethus), he was entertaining an audience who were very wealthy and highly educated. But as we know today, even the most wealthy and educated of audiences can be entertained by David Copperfield or David Blaine. I like to think I am well versed in every scientific process and technique, but still I am left scratching my head sometimes at their tricks.

But that is the whole point of magic entertainment, and a 1st century audience would have been totally flummoxed at Hero of Alexandria's mechanical expertise. How many educated 1st century people would have been familiar with water surface tension and the siphonic action? None, one would suspect. And so Hero of Alexandria could entertain the grandest houses and the richest of temples, which is how he earned his living.

But the bottom line here, is that we have a biblical description of his trick jugs, which means that some of the information in the gospel stories was based upon real historical events.

** Actually King Jesus EmManuel (King Izas Manu) of Edessa-Adiabene.


.

No, you only think you win. Your 'evidence' is so weak it is laughable.

You weave tenuous threads of gossamer and call those evidence. Your connections are mostly made from vague similarities in story, name, or words.

You're another von Daniken.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
18-03-2013, 10:47 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(18-03-2013 02:58 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  You hate discussing anything with me because I win every argument.

Do you have an objective measure for determining this, or do you just assume it to be true? If you assume it, that sounds an awful lot like the cognitive dissonance that I accused you of being ruled by.

Everyone thinks highly of him or herself, but not everyone is as right as they think they are. You have to be able to soberly self-reflect if you ever want to see the truth through the illusion that we all project naturally onto ourselves. And statements like this suggest that you haven't even attempted a sober self-reflection. Nor are you likely to do it.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
19-03-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
All here ducked the text itself during this discussion. Shocking. Smile
*It was a large vat of water/wine
*It was filled by the party host's servants who served as independent witnesses of the transformation while Jesus sat at a table not touching the tankard or the water/wine--nor were disciples with Him to do his "sleight-of-hand" for Him
*Dinner guests complimented the host re: the excellent quality of the wine
*There are parallels with water and wine in the New Testament, Jesus being living water, wine representing the joy of life and the blood sacrifice of the Messiah
*There are now just about 100 other miracles of Jesus to "explain away" including His resurrection
Sigh.
Find all posts by this user
19-03-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(19-03-2013 08:54 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  All here ducked the text itself during this discussion. Shocking. Smile
*It was a large vat of water/wine
*It was filled by the party host's servants who served as independent witnesses of the transformation while Jesus sat at a table not touching the tankard or the water/wine--nor were disciples with Him to do his "sleight-of-hand" for Him
*Dinner guests complimented the host re: the excellent quality of the wine
*There are parallels with water and wine in the New Testament, Jesus being living water, wine representing the joy of life and the blood sacrifice of the Messiah
*There are now just about 100 other miracles of Jesus to "explain away" including His resurrection
Sigh.

None of the 'miracles' are attested to outside of the Bible. I remain skeptical.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
19-03-2013, 09:27 AM
Re: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
We no more have to debunk Jesus' miracles than we are obliged to debunk Harry Potter's magic spells. The only source for Jesus' miracles are Mark and Luke (other gospels drew from them and Matthew is a well known liar). Given that neither Mark nor Luke were eyewitnesses, nor would they have known any by that time period, and considering numerous historical inaccuracies and discrepancies, AND considering they may both have been plagiarizing an earlier source whose motives and relation to the events is unknown, AND considering that none of these people believed Jesus was god...

I don't see how any of the gospels can be used as evidence of anything, least of all the veracity of the very Christian doctrine that is based on them.
Find all posts by this user
[+] 2 users Like Phaedrus's post
19-03-2013, 09:30 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(19-03-2013 08:54 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  All here ducked the text itself during this discussion. Shocking. Smile
*It was a large vat of water/wine
*It was filled by the party host's servants who served as independent witnesses of the transformation while Jesus sat at a table not touching the tankard or the water/wine--nor were disciples with Him to do his "sleight-of-hand" for Him
*Dinner guests complimented the host re: the excellent quality of the wine
*There are parallels with water and wine in the New Testament, Jesus being living water, wine representing the joy of life and the blood sacrifice of the Messiah
*There are now just about 100 other miracles of Jesus to "explain away" including His resurrection
Sigh.


Oh, do come on.

Simon Magus was always recognised as the greatest magician of that era - he being about to allow a wooden rod to go right through him, to conjure up a ghostly boy made of nothing more than vapours, and to fly across Rome in a chariot.

If conjuring tricks are a mark of divinity, then why are you not venerating Simon Magus??


.
Find all posts by this user
19-03-2013, 09:42 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(19-03-2013 09:27 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  We no more have to debunk Jesus' miracles than we are obliged to debunk Harry Potter's magic spells. The only source for Jesus' miracles are Mark and Luke (other gospels drew from them and Matthew is a well known liar). Given that neither Mark nor Luke were eyewitnesses, nor would they have known any by that time period, and considering numerous historical inaccuracies and discrepancies, AND considering they may both have been plagiarizing an earlier source whose motives and relation to the events is unknown, AND considering that none of these people believed Jesus was god...

I don't see how any of the gospels can be used as evidence of anything, least of all the veracity of the very Christian doctrine that is based on them.


And likewise, do come on.

The comparison here is not with Harry Potter, but with David Copperfield. Now understanding the conjuring tricks of David Copperfield is not only much more challenging than believing in simple 'miracles', it will also tell you much more about the technology and society of 1st century Judaea.

It would be negligent for us to throw the baby out with the bathwater, especially since we have demonstrable proof that a water-to-wine conjuring trick was in vogue in the 1st century. Recognising this, and the evidence given in the N.T. allows us to speculate more on the other tricks of Hero of Alexandria.

Did Hero really display levitation tricks, based upon magnets? And if so, does this mean that the magnetic properties of the Elagabal were based upon reality, rather than mythology? You see, there are many interesting questions, that a full, open, and rational analysis of these text can present us with. Avoiding these questions is, well, intellectual cowardice.




.
Find all posts by this user
Thread Closed 
Forum Jump: