Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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20-03-2013, 09:35 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2013 01:40 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(20-03-2013 09:08 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:What seems far more likely to me in this specific case is that Jesus never existed or maybe somebody existed named Jesus who was nothing like the legend. Either way it seems more likely that the legend formed and eventually someone, who had seen this jug trick performed elsewhere, attributed it to Jesus during the oral tradition as yet another "miracle".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[1][2][3][4] and biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[
Quote: LOL. You were not there. You have no idea what he was doing, and neither does anone else, or if he was seated, or how the room was arranged. You are laughable.
Not at all. I’m engaging in challenging a thread that interprets a certain text by referring to what the text is stating/claiming. This thread is like saying Gandalf is a blue wizard when a close reading of Tolkien informs us he is a grey, then white, wizard per the TEXT. When you make uninformed assertions like these, BB, I wonder how you ever passed a college English course, let alone the higher level studies you claim.

Nope. You are trying to make us think that the miracles in the gospels were somehow unique. You assume the literal truth of a text, when in fact there is every reason to doubt them. They were not literal, and certainly not unique. Starting in the OT, (for example many magicians changed rods into snakes, INCLUDING some in pharoh's court), they follow a pattern, like the raising of Jarius' daughter. Dying and rising and miracle working/doing gods, and sons of gods were a dime a dozen. It WAS a "magical" age, where science was totally unknown to the common man. You could not "challenge" a thread if you tried, SexuallyPleasingJebusTroll. Now you are equating the gospels with a work of fiction, and complaining about someone not taking it literally, and then have the balls to complain. Actually, it makes anyone wonder if YOU ever took Logic 101. We all know from your "prophesy" crap you never took Old Testament 101.

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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21-03-2013, 12:36 AM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2013 01:45 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(20-03-2013 09:50 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(20-03-2013 09:41 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 01:19 PM)Impulse Wrote:  What was the point of Jesus going to such elaborate measures to try to convince people that he was divine probably knowing that perceived blasphemy could earn him death? Was he hungry for power? Was he trying to change the world to be more moral? Was he simply manipulating people because it was fun and because he could? Countless explanations are possible, but none really strike me as plausible.


That is the whole beauty of this reassessment of the gospels, for now we know exactly what (King) Jesus-Izas' goal was.


The clue, which everyone skips over, is that he was crucified with a purple cloak - the cloak of the emperor. This, was Jesus' ultimate goal - he was an ambitious king, and wanted to become Emperor of Rome. And there are several allusions to this in the Talmud too.

Remember the change in chronology. This was not the AD 30s, but the AD 60s (because King Jesus-(Em)Manuel was King Izas-Manu). In the late AD 60s, Nero was dead, and the Throne of Rome was open for whoever could grab it. Four (actually five) candidates threw their hat into the ring. This was, of course, the Year of Four (Five) Emperors.

Why do I say five? Because the one candidate that eveyone misses out, was Jesus. Remember that the great oracle of the era, was the Star Prophesy - the very prophesy that Vespasian borrowed from the Jews, to become Emperor of Rome. The Star Prophesy said that a star-king from the East would become the emperor (or king) of the world. But who was born under the Eastern Star? The biblical King Jesus-Izas, of course. (Hence the Masonic society called the Eastern Star.)

This is why the Talmud continually asociates Balaam (Jesus) with Vespasian and Titus (ie, with the AD 70s and the Jewish Revolt), and why the Talmud denigrates Jesus so much. Balaam (Jesus-Izas) (also called bar-Kamza) was known to have caused the Jewish Revolt, and thus caused the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem, and this is why the rabbis hated him - and why the Talmud said that Balaam (Jesus) should be boiled in boiling semen and boiling shit.


This is not a single issue claim, a one-name transliteration, a two-line reevaluation of history. This is a reevaluation of the entire gospel account, that makes a whole lot more sense if you know that Jesus was the leader of the Jewish Revolt in AD 70 (ie, King Jesus-(Em)Manuel was actually King Izas-Manu of Edessa).

Why else would the gospel accounts include a description of the siege of Jerusalem?? Why else would Jesus-Izas be crucified wearing a Crown of Thorns? (The Crown of Thorns was the traditional ceremonial crown of Edessa.) There are so many things that the classical chronology cannot explain, but the later chronology explains with ease.

In fact, I will make very a bold assertion - that the new chronology can explain everything.



.
RE

"Why else would the gospel accounts include a description of the siege of Jerusalem??"

With
respect to you, Ralph, there are many possible explanations for this.
Joseph Atwill gives a very good explanation in his book. I agree with
you that the gospels do contain a description of the siege of Jerusalem.
To my mind all this proves is that that part of the gospel was written
after A.D. 70.

As for Jesus supposedly wearing a crown of
thorns, I can understand that this was put on his head to mock him. I
agree that he probably liked to imagine he might one day be King of the
Jews. The crown of thorns does not date the gospel events to the 60s, as
it could just as well have happened in the 30s. It is interesting what
you say about the crown of thorns being linked to the king of Edessa.
I'll take your word on it, because I tried to google this and I can't
find anything about it that has been written by anyone other than
yourself.

The fact that your Jesus has so many different names
makes it very confusing. One time he's called Ballam, another time he's
called the King of Izas, or Gamala, or bar kamza, and I think you've identified him
under one or two other names as well.

I'm still to be convinced
that the Talmud speaks of Jesus. I'm sure there have been thousands of
scholars that have looked into this in great depth. As best I can tell
not one of them comes to the same conclusions as yourself. That doesn't
necessarily mean you're wrong, but as yet I still haven't seen the
evidence that you talk about. Even if the Talmud does talk of Jesus, is
it not a fourth century creation and therefore not reliable as history?
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21-03-2013, 12:47 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(20-03-2013 09:08 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:What seems far more likely to me in this specific case is that Jesus never existed or maybe somebody existed named Jesus who was nothing like the legend. Either way it seems more likely that the legend formed and eventually someone, who had seen this jug trick performed elsewhere, attributed it to Jesus during the oral tradition as yet another "miracle".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[1][2][3][4] and biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[
Quote: LOL. You were not there. You have no idea what he was doing, and neither does anone else, or if he was seated, or how the room was arranged. You are laughable.
Not at all. I’m engaging in challenging a thread that interprets a certain text by referring to what the text is stating/claiming. This thread is like saying Gandalf is a blue wizard when a close reading of Tolkien informs us he is a grey, then white, wizard per the TEXT. When you make uninformed assertions like these, BB, I wonder how you ever passed a college English course, let alone the higher level studies you claim.
No, it is you who completely misunderstands what Bucky is saying. Bucky is pointing out that you have no idea what colour Gandolf was. Gandolf is a literary creation, just like Jesus is a literary creation. You're trying to use literature to prove that something happened in real life, and there is no way you can do that.
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21-03-2013, 07:50 AM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2013 07:59 AM by ralphellis.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(21-03-2013 12:36 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  As for Jesus supposedly wearing a crown of
thorns, I can understand that this was put on his head to mock him. I
agree that he probably liked to imagine he might one day be King of the
Jews.

To mock him? Who says? Where is the evidence? This is simply one of those 'obvious facts' that has been repeated so often that everyone believes it - even the 'unbelievers'. But who says so? What if it was not mockery?

And remember, this was not mockery about becoming King of Judaea, for Jesus was also dressed in a purple cloak - the dress of an emperor. In reality, Jesus wanted to become Emperor of Rome. This is why Jesus' Star Prophesy was taken by Vespasian, and used by him to become emperor.

As to what the Crown of Thorns looked like, here is an image. This is not of Jesus himself, but of a descendent - but since all the Edessan monarchs used the same crown, Jesus' would have looked much the same.
http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2013/02/19/...raates.jpg

Note that the crown is far removed from the 'brambles' sob-story we have been sold. This was a real crown, in the same tradition as Aaron (brother of Moses) wore, and as described in Exodus. It is also based upon the Greek tradition of the omphalos stone of Delphi.

And this is what Jesus looked like, based upon this coin, and a mid1st century statue of Jesus-Manu I discoverd.
http://www.edfu-books.com/edessa-jacket.html

This is also the jacket cover to the book.




(21-03-2013 12:36 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The fact that your Jesus has so many different names
makes it very confusing. One time he's called Ballam, another time he's
called the King of Izas, or Gamala, or bar kamza, and I think you've identified him
under one or two other names as well.

Even if the Talmud does talk of Jesus, is
it not a fourth century creation and therefore not reliable as history?


Of course he had many pseudonyms, because nobody wanted you to know who he was. Put it this way - why does Josephus never mention King Abgarus, King Manu or the City of Edessa?? Yet this was the monarchy that started the Jewish Revolt, so why are they missing? Answer - Josephus and the Catholic Church wanted to delete them from history.

So we end up with pseudonyms.

Jesus is an alternate rendition of Izas.
EmManuel is an alternate rendition of Manu.
So neither of these are pseudonyms as such.

Then we come to the Talmud. The entire Talmud is filled with Pesher Pseudonyms, so a few names for Jesus is not so peculiar. Remember that the rabbis faced certain death if they wrote anything nasty about Jesus, so pseudonyms were essential. Especially as they asked for Jesus to be boiled in semen and shit.

Balaam - a well known pesher for Jesus, because the life of Balaam suited Jesus well.
Bar Kamza - the Edessan royalty were known as 'locusts', even in the Acts of the Apostles (because they came from the east and destroyed Jerusalem). It was hardly surprising that the rabbis would use the same terminology.


As to the Talmud being written in the 4th century, I doubt it. This is what they would like you to think. Like the gospels, they like to invoke a period of oral tradition, to explain away why all these people are missing from the historical record. But this is what Josephus was doing in Jabneh, along with composing Antiquities, Jewish War, Acts of the Apostles and Luke. It is likely, therefore, that Josephus was Johannan ben Zakkai - the guy who crafted much of the Talmud. Busy guy, Josephus.



.
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21-03-2013, 07:52 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
Quote:Nope. You are trying to make us think that the miracles in the gospels were somehow unique. You assume the literal truth of a text, when in fact there is every reason to doubt them. They were not literal, and certainly not unique. Starting in the OT, (for example many magicians changed rods into snakes, INCLUDING some in pharoh's court), they follow a pattern, like the raising of Jarius' daughter. Dying and rising and miracle working/doing gods, and sons of gods were a dime a dozen. It WAS a "magical" age, where science was totally unknown to the common man. You could not "challenge" a thread if you tried, SexuallyPleasingJebusTroll. Now you are equating the gospels with a work of fiction, and complaining about someone not taking it literally, and then have the balls to complain. Actually, it makes anyone wonder if YOU ever took Logic 101. We all know from your "prophesy" crap you never took Old Testament 101.
No, my hypothesis starts with the gospels being pure fiction. Per your understanding, a blind parroting of what you hear in school from the "enlightened" scholars of modern day revisionism, the gospels were written long after the fact of an historical Jesus who died in poverty and obscurity, to promote a religion so that its adherents could be rejected by their people to die horrible deaths at the ends of their nation's captors or in diaspora (where they were non-polytheists already being persecuted), to fulfill prophecies from a series of fictitious books that were written to cover other fictitious books. Despite the fact that any person in Jerusalem, including the several hundred thousand who visited at Pentecost, Tabernacles and Passover from the Greek/Roman diaspora annually, could debunk any or all of the events of the gospels, these people, the Jews, who were nearly 100% literate and memorized stories, traditions and events enough to fill 20 volumes of Talmud later, were such ignoramuses that they allowed the NT and gospels to be promoted--even though the Jews promoting them were in synagogues with them until 110 or 120 AD, and etc. A lot of converted Atheists did the smart thing and went through the Bible with a toothcomb to prove it all wrong before they wised up--you have to go through so many gyrations for garbage like this and JDEP that you are going by blind faith. Smile PS. Feel free to refute what I wrote using examples and empirical evidence or historical records rather than another (yawn) ad hom or special pleading attack.
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21-03-2013, 08:39 AM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2013 10:45 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(20-03-2013 09:08 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:What seems far more likely to me in this specific case is that Jesus never existed or maybe somebody existed named Jesus who was nothing like the legend. Either way it seems more likely that the legend formed and eventually someone, who had seen this jug trick performed elsewhere, attributed it to Jesus during the oral tradition as yet another "miracle".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[1][2][3][4] and biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[
Quote: LOL. You were not there. You have no idea what he was doing, and neither does anone else, or if he was seated, or how the room was arranged. You are laughable.
Not at all. I’m engaging in challenging a thread that interprets a certain text by referring to what the text is stating/claiming. This thread is like saying Gandalf is a blue wizard when a close reading of Tolkien informs us he is a grey, then white, wizard per the TEXT. When you make uninformed assertions like these, BB, I wonder how you ever passed a college English course, let alone the higher level studies you claim.

(21-03-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Nope. You are trying to make us think that the miracles in the gospels were somehow unique. You assume the literal truth of a text, when in fact there is every reason to doubt them. They were not literal, and certainly not unique. Starting in the OT, (for example many magicians changed rods into snakes, INCLUDING some in pharoh's court), they follow a pattern, like the raising of Jarius' daughter. Dying and rising and miracle working/doing gods, and sons of gods were a dime a dozen. It WAS a "magical" age, where science was totally unknown to the common man. You could not "challenge" a thread if you tried, SexuallyPleasingJebusTroll. Now you are equating the gospels with a work of fiction, and complaining about someone not taking it literally, and then have the balls to complain. Actually, it makes anyone wonder if YOU ever took Logic 101. We all know from your "prophesy" crap you never took Old Testament 101.
No, my hypothesis starts with the gospels being pure fiction. Per your understanding, a blind parroting of what you hear in school from the "enlightened" scholars of modern day revisionism, the gospels were written long after the fact of an historical Jesus who died in poverty and obscurity, to promote a religion so that its adherents could be rejected by their people to die horrible deaths at the ends of their nation's captors or in diaspora (where they were non-polytheists already being persecuted), to fulfill prophecies from a series of fictitious books that were written to cover other fictitious books. Despite the fact that any person in Jerusalem, including the several hundred thousand who visited at Pentecost, Tabernacles and Passover from the Greek/Roman diaspora annually, could debunk any or all of the events of the gospels, these people, the Jews, who were nearly 100% literate and memorized stories, traditions and events enough to fill 20 volumes of Talmud later, were such ignoramuses that they allowed the NT and gospels to be promoted--even though the Jews promoting them were in synagogues with them until 110 or 120 AD, and etc. A lot of converted Atheists did the smart thing and went through the Bible with a toothcomb to prove it all wrong before they wised up--you have to go through so many gyrations for garbage like this and JDEP that you are going by blind faith. Smile PS. Feel free to refute what I wrote using examples and empirical evidence or historical records rather than another (yawn) ad hom or special pleading attack.

You have no idea what I have heard in class, or what or why I have or have not decided to accept, you presumptuous, self-righteous ignoramus. You clearly have no religion degree, (liar). You don't even know the definition of Special Pleading, nor are you able to actually provide one, SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke. Prove the literacy rate of the Jews. Prove that many others besides your Jebus rose from their graves and were supposedly seen by others in Jerusalem after his resurrection, yet NOT ONE was ever spoken of BY NAME or verified, by Roman OR Jew, or non-Christain. No temple curtain was ever verified as having been "rent", (an event which would have been SO monumental EVERY historian would have mentioned it), and there was no earthquake recorded by those who recorded all the other real ones. Your bullshit of "several hundred thousand" Talmud scholars is THE most ridiculous pile of crap you have come up with yet. Prove it. They did not "allow it to be promoted". Liar. Gamaliel II, (the High Priest), required the Expulsion Curses be read in all the Jewish synogogues in the late First Century because they thought the cult members of the "Way", (Christians) were nuts, (just as you are). You're gonna have to do FAR FAR better than this, SPJTJoke if you think you will EVER convert anyone, or not continue to embarrass yourself. As usual you provide not one piece of evidence or references. Just assertions with no evidence. Just because someone in the First Century was literate, did not mean they did not believe in magic/miracles. Obviously your Christians did. So provide some references and evidence or STFU. For anyone interested in actual History, there is an excellent book by Harvard socioliogist Vincent Martin, PhD, (hardly a "revisionist"), called A House Divided, re the painful parting of the ways bewteen The Way cult, (Christians), and the Jews, in the LATE First Century. And BTW, what the hell is a "revisionist". Someone who just doesn't buy the party (fundie) line ?

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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21-03-2013, 09:23 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(20-03-2013 09:50 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(20-03-2013 09:41 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 01:19 PM)Impulse Wrote:  What was the point of Jesus going to such elaborate measures to try to convince people that he was divine probably knowing that perceived blasphemy could earn him death? Was he hungry for power? Was he trying to change the world to be more moral? Was he simply manipulating people because it was fun and because he could? Countless explanations are possible, but none really strike me as plausible.


That is the whole beauty of this reassessment of the gospels, for now we know exactly what (King) Jesus-Izas' goal was.


The clue, which everyone skips over, is that he was crucified with a purple cloak - the cloak of the emperor. This, was Jesus' ultimate goal - he was an ambitious king, and wanted to become Emperor of Rome. And there are several allusions to this in the Talmud too.

Remember the change in chronology. This was not the AD 30s, but the AD 60s (because King Jesus-(Em)Manuel was King Izas-Manu). In the late AD 60s, Nero was dead, and the Throne of Rome was open for whoever could grab it. Four (actually five) candidates threw their hat into the ring. This was, of course, the Year of Four (Five) Emperors.

Why do I say five? Because the one candidate that eveyone misses out, was Jesus. Remember that the great oracle of the era, was the Star Prophesy - the very prophesy that Vespasian borrowed from the Jews, to become Emperor of Rome. The Star Prophesy said that a star-king from the East would become the emperor (or king) of the world. But who was born under the Eastern Star? The biblical King Jesus-Izas, of course. (Hence the Masonic society called the Eastern Star.)

This is why the Talmud continually asociates Balaam (Jesus) with Vespasian and Titus (ie, with the AD 70s and the Jewish Revolt), and why the Talmud denigrates Jesus so much. Balaam (Jesus-Izas) (also called bar-Kamza) was known to have caused the Jewish Revolt, and thus caused the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem, and this is why the rabbis hated him - and why the Talmud said that Balaam (Jesus) should be boiled in boiling semen and boiling shit.


This is not a single issue claim, a one-name transliteration, a two-line reevaluation of history. This is a reevaluation of the entire gospel account, that makes a whole lot more sense if you know that Jesus was the leader of the Jewish Revolt in AD 70 (ie, King Jesus-(Em)Manuel was actually King Izas-Manu of Edessa).

Why else would the gospel accounts include a description of the siege of Jerusalem?? Why else would Jesus-Izas be crucified wearing a Crown of Thorns? (The Crown of Thorns was the traditional ceremonial crown of Edessa.) There are so many things that the classical chronology cannot explain, but the later chronology explains with ease.

In fact, I will make very a bold assertion - that the new chronology can explain everything.



.
Honestly, I don't have the education in the related history to even be able to discuss this with you or have any clue whether you may be right. That's why I'm here and other places trying to learn as much as I can and I do appreciate your input. It just seems odd to me that, even if you're right that Jesus was trying to become Emperor of Rome, that he would employ magic tricks in order to do so. Based on what I have heard and read up to now, I remain highly skeptical that the Jesus of the Bible was ever a real person and, if he wasn't, then it's easy to see how someone may have attributed what they thought was real magic to this legend that they believed was really a divine being. But I remain open-minded about it all since I still have much to learn.

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21-03-2013, 09:46 AM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2013 11:26 AM by ralphellis.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
.
(21-03-2013 09:23 AM)Impulse Wrote:  .

It just seems odd to me that, even if you're right that Jesus was trying to become Emperor of Rome, that he would employ magic tricks in order to do so.

But I remain open-minded about it all since I still have much to learn.


Ahhh, but that is exactly what Roman Emperors did do. Emperor Vespasian, for instance, was looking for oracles to prove his worth, and it was cited that a tree on his farm fell down, and then re-errected itself. A dog came, and dropped a human hand before him. A bull burst into his dining room, and bowed down before him. (See Suetonius and Tacitus).

But that was not enough, to prove he could be emperor, and so they brought a cripple before Vespasian (while he was in Alexandria), and invited him to spit in his eye and cure his blindness in one eye. This Vespasian did, and the man was cured - and it was this act that allowed Vespasian to become emperor. A miracle was needed...


Significantly, you might note that Vespasian's miracle was the same as Jesus used, to cure a blind man. In addition, the man cured was blind in one eye and lame in one leg (and a dislocated shoulder), which is the same as the Talmud describes for Jesus. (These were post-crucifixion wounds.) In addition, the man was called Basillides, a chief Egyptian. It is very easy to see here 'basileus' meaning 'king', and the 'Egyptian False Prophet', which was a pseudonym for Jesus.


Significantly, the final oracle that Vespasian used to become emperor, was the Jewish Star Prophesy, which said that a Star-king from the East would become king of the world (emperor of Rome). And who was born under the Eastern Star, eh? Sure, it was Jesus again.

Clearly, Vespasian became the new Jesus - or rather Vespasian took the oracles that Jesus had spent so long crafting for himself, and used those oracles to become Emperor of Rome.



.
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21-03-2013, 11:20 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(21-03-2013 09:46 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  .
(21-03-2013 09:23 AM)Impulse Wrote:  .

It just seems odd to me that, even if you're right that Jesus was trying to become Emperor of Rome, that he would employ magic tricks in order to do so.

But I remain open-minded about it all since I still have much to learn.


But that is exactly what Roman Emperors did do. Emperor Vespasian, for instance, was looking for oracles to prove his worth, and it was cited that a tree on his farm fell down, and then re-errected itself. A dog came, and dropped a human hand before him. A bull burst into his dining room, and bowed down before him. (See Suetonius and Tacitus).

But that was not enough, to prove he could be emperor, and so they brought a cripple before Vespasian (while he was in Alexandria), and invited him to spit in his eye and cure his blindness in one eye. This Vespasian did, and the man was cured - and it was this act that allowed Vespasian to become emperor. A miracle was needed...


Significantly, you might note that Vespasian's miracle was the same as Jesus used, to cure a blind man. In addition, the man cured was blind in one eye and lame in one leg (and a dislocated shoulder), which is the same as the Talmud describes for Jesus. (These were post-crucifixion wounds.) In addition, the man was called Basillides, a chief Egyptian. It is very easy to see here 'basileus' meaning 'king', and the 'Egyptian False Prophet', which was a pseudonym for Jesus.


Significantly, the final oracle that Vespasian used to become emperor, was the Jewish Star Prophesy, which said that a Star-king from the East would become king of the world (emperor of Rome). And who was born under the Eastern Star, eh? Sure, it was Jesus again.

Clearly, Vespasian became the new Jesus - or rather Vespasian took the oracles that Jesus had spent so long crafting for himself, and used those oracles to become Emperor of Rome.



.
I remain unconvinced. I just did an (admittedly) quick Google search and found the "miracles" of Vespasian just as you said. But I couldn't find any miracles by other emperors so I don't see that it was typical. Magic itself was commonplace, but not necessarily by emperors. If there weren't miracles from emperors before Jesus, then it doesn't explain why Jesus would employ magic tricks toward a goal of becoming emperor. Vespasian, however, may have gotten the idea from Jesus, although it wouldn't explain why he would use it to aid in becoming emperor unless you are right that Jesus was doing so too. He also may have originated the idea.

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21-03-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
Quote:You have no idea what I have heard in class, or what or why I have or have not decided to accept, you presumptuous, self-righteous ignoramus. You clearly have no religion degree, (liar). You don't even know the definition of Special Pleading, nor are you able to actually provide one, SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke. Prove the literacy rate of the Jews. Prove that many others besides your Jebus rose from their graves and were supposedly seen by others in Jerusalem after his resurrection, yet NOT ONE was ever spoken of BY NAME or verified, by Roman OR Jew, or non-Christain. No temple curtain was ever verified as having been "rent", (an event which would have been SO monumental EVERY historian would have mentioned it), and there was no earthquake recorded by those who recorded all the other real ones. Your bullshit of "several hundred thousand" Talmud scholars is THE most ridiculous pile of crap you have come up with yet. Prove it. They did not "allow it to be promoted". Liar. Gamaliel II, (the High Priest), required the Expulsion Curses be read in all the Jewish synogogues in the late First Century because they thought the cult members of the "Way", (Christians) were nuts, (just as you are). You're gonna have to do FAR FAR better than this, SPJTJoke if you think you will EVER convert anyone, or not continue to embarrass yourself. As usual you provide not one piece of evidence or references. Just assertions with no evidence. Just because someone in the First Century was literate, did not mean they did not believe in magic/miracles. Obviously your Christians did. So provide some references and evidence or STFU. For anyone interested in actual History, there is an excellent book by Harvard socioliogist Vincent Martin, PhD, (hardly a "revisionist"), called A House Divided, re the painful parting of the ways bewteen The Way cult, (Christians), and the Jews, in the LATE First Century. And BTW, what the hell is a "revisionist". Someone who just doesn't buy the party (fundie) line ?

1. Here’s some of my coursework: Ancient Greek 1 and 2, HISTORY CHRISTIANITY, NEW TESTAMENT, PAUL ACTS/EARLIEST CH, RELIGIONS OF AFRICA, INTRO TO ISLAM, SURV BIBL HIST/RELIG, RELIGION AND SOCIETY, RELIGIONS OF INDIA, COMPARATIVE SEMINAR, AMER RELIG THOUGHT, INDIVIDUAL WORK (independent study), SCIENCE MYTH & VALUES, Latin 1, FORMS OF NARRATIVE, SURVEY OF ROMAN LIT, DISCOVER THE UNIVERSE, EVOLU ECOL & BEHAVIOR, ANTH SUSTAINABILITY, HUMAN SEXUALITY & CUL, CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGY, GRANDEUR WAS ROME,

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading - including your continually calling me uneducated - assertion that the opponent lacks the qualifications necessary to comprehend a point of view

Example: I know you think that quantum mechanics does not always make sense. There are things about quantum mechanics that you don't have the education to understand.

3. The literacy rate of the Jews stemmed from their conversance with the Hebrew scriptures. Even the fisher disciples of Jesus had to ascend the Bema to make what we would call today Bar-Mitzvah and read the Holy Book. And obviously, you’ve never seen Yentl. 

4. The resurrected briefly appeared in a visible rapture as per the gospels, sure. One obvious source of verifying documentation comes from Paul, who wrote no gospels but wrote several epistles to assure his readers the ultimate rapture had not yet taken place.

5. There was no Jewish recording of the curtain being rent apart from the gospels for an obvious reason—the Shekinah glory had departed from the Temple and the embarrassment/allusion to Jesus as Messiah would have troubled any non-Messianic author.

**Jewish historical sources outside the Bible from the first century do not describe the tearing of the temple’s veil. However, there are substantial references from first-century sources and later tradition that describe displacement of the temple doors in association with a Passover in about 30 AD. This event of displaced temple doors was interpreted by Jews as an omen of God’s departure after destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70 AD. Jewish sources recount an incident concerning displacement of the doors in approximately 30 AD. The doors were found by priests on one occasion to be open. The tradition says that a huge assembly of priests was required to restore the massive metal doors to their proper closed position. These doors could have been displaced by damage to the same hewn-stone lintel that supported the veil. Christians would immediately associate the tearing of the temple’s veil with the remarkable truth that the sacrificial death of Christ broke the division between man and God (Hebrews 10:19, 20).

Unbelieving Jews would discount the event making it an occasion to preserve the integrity of the temple by emphasizing the strength of the priests as they restored the huge doors keeping “God in a closed box.” What tore the veil of the temple? What displaced the huge doors? In Matthew’s account the tearing of the veil is mentioned immediately before the earthquake. We might suppose it was the earthquake, but God is not limited to just the way we think.

**Geologists say Jesus, as described in the New Testament, was most likely crucified on Friday, April 3, in the year 33.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/47555983/ns/te...s-believe/

6. I never wrote “hundreds of thousands of Talmudic scholars”. I am pointing out the incredibly rich textual and oral traditions of the period, which are categorically undeniable. The first writer of commentary on Talmudic tradition? Paul in the NT!

7. The “expulsion curses” do not do away with the fact that Messianics continued in fellowship with their fellow Jews until the times of Masada. Your “late first century” dating agrees with mine as in the post above that you didn’t read carefully.

8. A revisionist or redactor is someone who dislikes a text at face value and then goes back in time in their mind to create a backstory to disprove the text. Like all our college classes. Sigh.

Source - http://www.gccramona.com/docs/Signs%20on...20Rev5.pdf

AND it would be unnecessary for me to provide the type of documentation shown above if you were learned, not only of the garbage trolled out by secular colleges today, but of the facts and evidence of the opposing viewpoint, as I certainly am.
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