Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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21-03-2013, 01:37 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(21-03-2013 01:18 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You have no idea what I have heard in class, or what or why I have or have not decided to accept, you presumptuous, self-righteous ignoramus. You clearly have no religion degree, (liar). You don't even know the definition of Special Pleading, nor are you able to actually provide one, SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke. Prove the literacy rate of the Jews. Prove that many others besides your Jebus rose from their graves and were supposedly seen by others in Jerusalem after his resurrection, yet NOT ONE was ever spoken of BY NAME or verified, by Roman OR Jew, or non-Christain. No temple curtain was ever verified as having been "rent", (an event which would have been SO monumental EVERY historian would have mentioned it), and there was no earthquake recorded by those who recorded all the other real ones. Your bullshit of "several hundred thousand" Talmud scholars is THE most ridiculous pile of crap you have come up with yet. Prove it. They did not "allow it to be promoted". Liar. Gamaliel II, (the High Priest), required the Expulsion Curses be read in all the Jewish synogogues in the late First Century because they thought the cult members of the "Way", (Christians) were nuts, (just as you are). You're gonna have to do FAR FAR better than this, SPJTJoke if you think you will EVER convert anyone, or not continue to embarrass yourself. As usual you provide not one piece of evidence or references. Just assertions with no evidence. Just because someone in the First Century was literate, did not mean they did not believe in magic/miracles. Obviously your Christians did. So provide some references and evidence or STFU. For anyone interested in actual History, there is an excellent book by Harvard socioliogist Vincent Martin, PhD, (hardly a "revisionist"), called A House Divided, re the painful parting of the ways bewteen The Way cult, (Christians), and the Jews, in the LATE First Century. And BTW, what the hell is a "revisionist". Someone who just doesn't buy the party (fundie) line ?

1. Here’s some of my coursework: Ancient Greek 1 and 2, HISTORY CHRISTIANITY, NEW TESTAMENT, PAUL ACTS/EARLIEST CH, RELIGIONS OF AFRICA, INTRO TO ISLAM, SURV BIBL HIST/RELIG, RELIGION AND SOCIETY, RELIGIONS OF INDIA, COMPARATIVE SEMINAR, AMER RELIG THOUGHT, INDIVIDUAL WORK (independent study), SCIENCE MYTH & VALUES, Latin 1, FORMS OF NARRATIVE, SURVEY OF ROMAN LIT, DISCOVER THE UNIVERSE, EVOLU ECOL & BEHAVIOR, ANTH SUSTAINABILITY, HUMAN SEXUALITY & CUL, CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGY, GRANDEUR WAS ROME,

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading - including your continually calling me uneducated - assertion that the opponent lacks the qualifications necessary to comprehend a point of view

Example: I know you think that quantum mechanics does not always make sense. There are things about quantum mechanics that you don't have the education to understand.

3. The literacy rate of the Jews stemmed from their conversance with the Hebrew scriptures. Even the fisher disciples of Jesus had to ascend the Bema to make what we would call today Bar-Mitzvah and read the Holy Book. And obviously, you’ve never seen Yentl. 

4. The resurrected briefly appeared in a visible rapture as per the gospels, sure. One obvious source of verifying documentation comes from Paul, who wrote no gospels but wrote several epistles to assure his readers the ultimate rapture had not yet taken place.

5. There was no Jewish recording of the curtain being rent apart from the gospels for an obvious reason—the Shekinah glory had departed from the Temple and the embarrassment/allusion to Jesus as Messiah would have troubled any non-Messianic author.

**Jewish historical sources outside the Bible from the first century do not describe the tearing of the temple’s veil. However, there are substantial references from first-century sources and later tradition that describe displacement of the temple doors in association with a Passover in about 30 AD. This event of displaced temple doors was interpreted by Jews as an omen of God’s departure after destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70 AD. Jewish sources recount an incident concerning displacement of the doors in approximately 30 AD. The doors were found by priests on one occasion to be open. The tradition says that a huge assembly of priests was required to restore the massive metal doors to their proper closed position. These doors could have been displaced by damage to the same hewn-stone lintel that supported the veil. Christians would immediately associate the tearing of the temple’s veil with the remarkable truth that the sacrificial death of Christ broke the division between man and God (Hebrews 10:19, 20).

Unbelieving Jews would discount the event making it an occasion to preserve the integrity of the temple by emphasizing the strength of the priests as they restored the huge doors keeping “God in a closed box.” What tore the veil of the temple? What displaced the huge doors? In Matthew’s account the tearing of the veil is mentioned immediately before the earthquake. We might suppose it was the earthquake, but God is not limited to just the way we think.

**Geologists say Jesus, as described in the New Testament, was most likely crucified on Friday, April 3, in the year 33.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/47555983/ns/te...s-believe/

6. I never wrote “hundreds of thousands of Talmudic scholars”. I am pointing out the incredibly rich textual and oral traditions of the period, which are categorically undeniable. The first writer of commentary on Talmudic tradition? Paul in the NT!

7. The “expulsion curses” do not do away with the fact that Messianics continued in fellowship with their fellow Jews until the times of Masada. Your “late first century” dating agrees with mine as in the post above that you didn’t read carefully.

8. A revisionist or redactor is someone who dislikes a text at face value and then goes back in time in their mind to create a backstory to disprove the text. Like all our college classes. Sigh.

Source - http://www.gccramona.com/docs/Signs%20on...20Rev5.pdf

AND it would be unnecessary for me to provide the type of documentation shown above if you were learned, not only of the garbage trolled out by secular colleges today, but of the facts and evidence of the opposing viewpoint, as I certainly am.

Deflection. No SOURCES for your claims. The gospels actually DO NOT AGREE on which day Jebus died, so who cares what "geologists" claim. (AGAIN NO REFERENCE). You are not "facts and evidence" of anything, as you NEVER provide any such thing, oh deluded one. You are an uneducated troll. Anyone can write a list of courses. You have never studied anything, as you constantly prove, over and over.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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21-03-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
And... you are not admitting there is evidence both for the earthquake and the darkness outside the scriptures... And the other 8 points I raised? Drinking Beverage Drinking Beverage One for me, one for you.
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24-03-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(20-03-2013 01:47 PM)yumeji Wrote:  Oh, the hilarity of this statement. Poor PJ, trying to live in that cage of a mind must be rough.


The trouble with 'mind-cages', is that both sides of this argument construct them.

Theists construct a cage, because they have rigid creed that says Jesus was a pauper carpenter and a son of god, and anything that suggest otherwise HAS to be rejected.

Atheists construct a similar cage, because they often have rigid creed that says Jesus did not exist, and anything that suggest otherwise HAS to be rejected.


And therein lies the problem. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle - that Jesus did exist, but he was a monarch and high priest of some influence, and in 'spiritual terms' he was just a regular guy like you and I. If you can grasp that, you are halfway to discovering who he was in the historical record.




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24-03-2013, 03:52 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(24-03-2013 02:52 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Theists construct a cage, because they have rigid creed that says Jesus was a pauper carpenter and a son of god, and anything that suggest otherwise HAS to be rejected.

Atheists construct a similar cage, because they often have rigid creed that says Jesus did not exist, and anything that suggest otherwise HAS to be rejected.

And some atheists reject cages and become their own personal Jeebus, their own personal Savior, their own personal God. Tongue

I am us and we is me. ... bitches.
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24-03-2013, 04:02 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(24-03-2013 03:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-03-2013 02:52 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Theists construct a cage, because they have rigid creed that says Jesus was a pauper carpenter and a son of god, and anything that suggest otherwise HAS to be rejected.

Atheists construct a similar cage, because they often have rigid creed that says Jesus did not exist, and anything that suggest otherwise HAS to be rejected.

And some atheists reject cages and become their own personal Jeebus, their own personal Savior, their own personal God. Tongue
Have you been drinking? Consider

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24-03-2013, 06:53 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(24-03-2013 02:52 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Atheists construct a similar cage, because they often have rigid creed that says Jesus did not exist, and anything that suggest otherwise HAS to be rejected.
Ignorant bollocks.

You attribute a set of beliefs to all atheists? You are assuming facts not in evidence.

Like most of your tissue-thin arguments.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-03-2013, 08:18 PM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2013 08:24 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(24-03-2013 04:02 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(24-03-2013 03:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And some atheists reject cages and become their own personal Jeebus, their own personal Savior, their own personal God. Tongue
Have you been drinking? Consider
Blush ... ummm ... maybe ... Blush

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25-03-2013, 01:28 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(24-03-2013 06:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-03-2013 02:52 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Atheists construct a similar cage, because they often have rigid creed that says Jesus did not exist, and anything that suggest otherwise HAS to be rejected.
Ignorant bollocks.

You attribute a set of beliefs to all atheists? You are assuming facts not in evidence.

Like most of your tissue-thin arguments.


Often, the greatest resistance I have to discovering any of the biblical characters or events in the historical record, comes from Atheists, not believers. Why is that?


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25-03-2013, 06:42 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(25-03-2013 01:28 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(24-03-2013 06:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  Ignorant bollocks.

You attribute a set of beliefs to all atheists? You are assuming facts not in evidence.

Like most of your tissue-thin arguments.


Often, the greatest resistance I have to discovering any of the biblical characters or events in the historical record, comes from Atheists, not believers. Why is that?


.
That can't be a serious question. Tongue

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25-03-2013, 09:06 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(25-03-2013 06:42 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(25-03-2013 01:28 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Often, the greatest resistance I have to discovering any of the biblical characters or events in the historical record, comes from Atheists, not believers. Why is that?
That can't be a serious question. Tongue


Oh, yes it is.

If someone had found evidence for, say, a city where King Akhenaton once lived, Atheists would be interested. But when someone finds evidence for, say, a city where King David once lived, Atheists are instantly dismissive, and do not even want to learn more.

But what is the difference? Both are fairly ephemeral characters who have been (deliberately) deleted from history, and so evidence for their lives is tenuous at best. But speculation about one would provoke interest and the other ridicule.

That is not logical nor rational.



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