Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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28-03-2013, 03:30 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2013 12:30 AM by Doctor X.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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31-03-2013, 07:42 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(28-03-2013 03:30 PM)Doctor X Wrote:  [Image: f287a35d.gif]

--J.D.


You might well be amazed, as it probably seems like a radical suggestion. But there is much evidence to back this claim up, like:

King Jesus Emmanuel being a Jewish rebel who led a revolt.
King Izas Manu(el) of Edessa being a Jewish rebel who led a revolt.

King Jesus Emmanuel wearing a Crown of Thorns.
King Izas Manu(el) of Edessa wearing a Crown of Thorns.

King Jesus Emmanuel being crucified after the revolt failed.
King Izas Manu(el) of Edessa being crucified after the revolt failed.

etc, etc, etc.


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31-03-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
These texts are written when?

--J.D.

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31-03-2013, 10:34 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(27-03-2013 12:06 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(26-03-2013 09:28 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Second of all, an Akhenaten discussion generally comes from scholarship and leads in interesting directions, whereas a David discussion generally comes from agenda and leads to, "therefore you must accept Jesus as your lord and savior." Call it a learned response. Big Grin


Well, that is understandable, but I can assure you that there are no 'lord and saviour' comments coming from this side of the argument. This is history, pure and simple.

Like this argument, on another thread, where I attempt to show that King David was a pharaoh of the 21st dynasty (Psusennes).

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=323519&page=2


Again, the natural reaction of Atheists/Rationalists is to dismiss the suggestion out of hand, without even stopping to consider the possibilities.


Cheers,
Ralph

That's some interesting stuff, but I didn't see an actual dismissal so much as the more natural reluctance to take on new ideas. Big problems seem to be the date of the Torah and the names. Consider

And I don't know how everybody else does it, but if I read something interesting but unlikely and go - fuck off with yer fuckwittery - the wheels will still be turning after. Meaning the issue will be further considered and possibly researched. So, I guess all you can do is keep on keeping on.

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01-04-2013, 12:08 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(31-03-2013 08:35 PM)Doctor X Wrote:  These texts are written when?

--J.D.

1st century AD.

As is usual with these ancient Greek authors there has been some dispute over when Hero of Alexandria lived. The Victorian translation of his pneumatics suggests the 2nd century BC:
http://books.google.nl/books?id=O8PVAAAA...&q&f=false


However, more recent scholarship has settled on a 1st century date - a time period that mirrors the life and times of King Izas (Jesus) Manu (Emmanuel) of Edessa very closely:
http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/...Heron.html


These manuscripts are considered genuine, and there is no real dispute that Hero penned them in the 1st century. Present manuscripts are, of course, copies.


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01-04-2013, 12:31 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(31-03-2013 10:34 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(27-03-2013 12:06 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  Like this argument, on another thread, where I attempt to show that King David was a pharaoh of the 21st dynasty (Psusennes).

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=323519&page=2

That's some interesting stuff, but I didn't see an actual dismissal so much as the more natural reluctance to take on new ideas. Big problems seem to be the date of the Torah and the names.

Surprisingly, the date does not change. The era of King Psusennes (King Duat) and King David (King Duad) are identical. And we know this because of the Torah's mention of Shishak (Sheshonq).

The royal succession remains pretty much the same too. The main difference being the deletion of one Psusennes (or conflation of two kings into one).


As I said in the discussion on the other thread, the biblical names for these pharaohs are in fact closer to the original than the Greek equivalents. And it is a touch naive to think that a 3,000 year old record, that has been transliterated into another language or two, would maintain the same pronunciation.

Take the name 'Jesus', for instance, a name which was supposed to be derived from Joshua (Yehohshuah), but supposedly became the Greek Iesous and then the English Jesus. As it happens, I don't believe that it did, but you can see how the authorities are happy that names can change. In comparison, I think the derivation for Jesus was actually - Izates, Izas, Iesous, Issa, Jesus. And that is a much more reasonable succession.

Or take Jesus' brother, whose name went - Yakob, Iakobus, Iacomus, James. Now if you did not know the intermediate forms, would you really think that Yakob and James were the same name?


In the circumstances, the degree of preservation of the pharaonic names of the 21st dynasty in the Torah, is remarkable.



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01-04-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
Ah, but King "Dawid's" (not "Duad's") tomb is today a tourist site in Israel.

Acts 2:

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[e] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’[f]
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01-04-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(01-04-2013 01:47 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Ah, but King "Dawid's" (not "Duad's") tomb is today a tourist site in Israel.


Come, come, now - mere baubles for the gullible tourists. A bit like splinters for the 'true cross', which would make an entire forest if you put them all together.


Read up on the archaeology of Israel - I would suggest Silberman and Finkelstein. The bottom line is that there is NO evidence for the United Monarchy in Israel - no palace, no city, no empire, no kings, no inscriptions, no wealth. Finklestein says that in the 10th century BC, Jerusalem was no more than a village.

This is the problem with Israelite history, and why the 'minimalists' say that the Tanakh is fiction - because there is absolutely NO evidence for the United Monarchy in the historical record. However, if you go a few miles to the southwest - from Zion to Zoan - you will find all the evidence for the United monarchy there. Here was the great empire, that monarchs would come and pay tribute to, the empire with a great army and massive wealth, the empire that ruled all of Judaea and Israel - it was the 21st dynasty empire of Lower Egypt.

It is here in Zoan (Tanis) in the 10th century BC that you will find a great king called Duad (David), who was famed for his Star and City glyphs (the Star of Duad and the City of Duad). In the Greek, he was called Psusennes.



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02-04-2013, 12:10 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(01-04-2013 01:47 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Ah, but King "Dawid's" (not "Duad's") tomb is today a tourist site in Israel.

Acts 2:

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[e] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’[f]


No it's not. Look it up. Get back to me.

Why are you quoting "Acts?" Surely you're not suggesting it is historical? Have you ever actually read the book of Acts? It is riddled with so much fabricated nonsene it
was obviously composed for a credulous audience.
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02-04-2013, 12:18 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(02-04-2013 12:10 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(01-04-2013 01:47 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Ah, but King "Dawid's" (not "Duad's") tomb is today a tourist site in Israel.

Acts 2:

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[e] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’[f]


No it's not. Look it up. Get back to me.

Why are you quoting "Acts?" Surely you're not suggesting it is historical? Have you ever actually read the book of Acts? It is riddled with so much fabricated nonsene it
was obviously composed for a credulous audience.

SexuallyPleasingJebus doesn't even know who quoting what in that last quote. It was used a number of times, by a numebr of people.
I repeat, if Jebus is "sitting" anywhere for a couple thousand years, he's got one hell of a case of 'roids. And only a few gazillion to go. Weeping

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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