Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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02-04-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
Quote:Come, come, now - mere baubles for the gullible tourists. A bit like splinters for the 'true cross', which would make an entire forest if you put them all together.

Read up on the archaeology of Israel - I would suggest Silberman and Finkelstein. The bottom line is that there is NO evidence for the United Monarchy in Israel - no palace, no city, no empire, no kings, no inscriptions, no wealth. Finklestein says that in the 10th century BC, Jerusalem was no more than a village.

This is the problem with Israelite history, and why the 'minimalists' say that the Tanakh is fiction - because there is absolutely NO evidence for the United Monarchy in the historical record. However, if you go a few miles to the southwest - from Zion to Zoan - you will find all the evidence for the United monarchy there. Here was the great empire, that monarchs would come and pay tribute to, the empire with a great army and massive wealth, the empire that ruled all of Judaea and Israel - it was the 21st dynasty empire of Lower Egypt.

It is here in Zoan (Tanis) in the 10th century BC that you will find a great king called Duad (David), who was famed for his Star and City glyphs (the Star of Duad and the City of Duad). In the Greek, he was called Psusennes.
Not at all like the "true cross". The nation and people of Israel are heavily invested in integritous finds of archaeology for all the major faiths. This is a disingenuous statement you've made.

I'm not going to waste time citing evidence for the exilic period and the kingly line like David's tomb, Solomon's border pillars, clear inscriptions of the Temple looting and exile from the Assyrians, etc. after all, this is an Atheist forum!

I'll just close with an exception from logic--if you want to argue there were no Israelite kings we can discover, then the chronicles of the judges are all true and/or the Babylonian and Assyrian occupations--as recorded in the Holy Bible. Thanks.
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02-04-2013, 10:39 AM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(02-04-2013 10:31 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm not going to waste time citing evidence for the exilic period and the kingly line like David's tomb, Solomon's border pillars, clear inscriptions of the Temple looting and exile from the Assyrians, etc. after all, this is an Atheist forum!

You do always have some excuse or other.

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02-04-2013, 12:31 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 06:41 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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02-04-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
Quote:You do always have some excuse or other.
I'd change it to biblical justification. I keep thinking of "pearls before swine" and Jesus's admonition to... well, not waste a lot of time posting and citing sources and etc. because you have a confirmatory bias about... well... everything.
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02-04-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(02-04-2013 02:39 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You do always have some excuse or other.
I'd change it to biblical justification. I keep thinking of "pearls before swine" and Jesus's admonition to... well, not waste a lot of time posting and citing sources and etc. because you have a confirmatory bias about... well... everything.


Maybe you should take your crap to more fertile environs, then.Dodgy

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-04-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(02-04-2013 02:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(02-04-2013 02:39 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'd change it to biblical justification. I keep thinking of "pearls before swine" and Jesus's admonition to... well, not waste a lot of time posting and citing sources and etc. because you have a confirmatory bias about... well... everything.


Maybe you should take your crap to more fertile environs, then.Dodgy

He'd get banned. Tongue

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02-04-2013, 09:11 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(02-04-2013 05:58 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  And! You got guilt-by-association going on against you... posting on icky Icke's forum.Tongue
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthrea...1060596837

So what about this contention that "star" wasn't associated with David until the Middle Ages? And "duat" meaning underworld? Hmmn? Big Grin


That "Roman Piso" on Icke is not me. There is, however, a guy that puts everything in the gospels down to a family of Piso, so I presume that is him.



As to 'duat', words can have two meanings. It means 'underworld' and 'star'.


Regards the Megan David, the Star of David (the Israeli flag-star). Yes, they do say it is a Middle Ages device. However, it does say in the Book of Kings:

And David made three hundred shields of beaten gold; three pound of gold went to one shield: and the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon. 1Ki 10:17

The shields here are the Megan of David that adorned the Temple of Zion (Temple of Zoan). (Megan means 'shield'.) And since these were decorative shields, rather than operative shields, they are likely to have been stars (like on the roof of any Egyptian temple or tomb).

And the Megan David device itself is very Egyptian, as it is merely two superimposed pyramids, with one inverted - a reference to the Giza plateau.


Yet we know that Giza was central to Israelite religion, before the great cover-up, for the Great Pyramid was originally called Mount Sinai. And we know this to be so because all the descriptions we have of Mt Sinai are exactly the same as for the Great Pyramid - especially the description of that black pavement that looked like the night sky. What is this? It is the black basalt pavement on the east side of the Great Pyramid.

So the Israelites never did 'loose' the location of their sacred mountain (which always did sound unlikely). They just did not want to admit what it was, for that would expose the fact that they were originally polytheistic Egyptians who worshipped idols (which the Torah sort of admits, in places).

And we know that King's David and Solomon were initiated into the mathematics of the Great Pyramid, because both of these kings (and Jesus, and the Exodus event too) are associated with the number 40.

As it happens, the number 40 is a direct mathematical reference to the Great Pyramid. And the reference to the number 40 while the Israelites were at Sinai, is confirmation that they were actually at Giza at this time and they were 'circumperambulating' the pyramid (just as Muslims circumperambulate the Kaba to this day). This was a great ceremony, before the exodus started.

As I said before, this theory is explanatory of every single detail of this epic story, and the theory fits like a glove. It might be a scary glove, for some people, but it is a tightly fitting glove nevertheless.


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02-04-2013, 09:22 PM
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(02-04-2013 07:54 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  And! Sometimes you refer to Psusennes I as David (like the images above), and sometimes Psusennes II, like the World Mysteries post... Consider


Same guy - conflated.

The only change made to the Egyptian record, is that the Torah only seems to have one David (one Psusennes).

However, if you look at the fragmentary evidence for the historical record, you can see why errors occur (literally fragmentary, as most of it is mummy wrappings). There are numerous permutations of fitting these wrapping-records together, and so the historians have lent heavily on Manetho for a succession list - if you believe Manetho.

So I took all the records of these pharaohs, and matched them to the biblical royal succession (with only one David/Psusennes) and it worked just fine.


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02-04-2013, 09:34 PM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2013 09:39 PM by ralphellis.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
(02-04-2013 07:10 AM)Doctor X Wrote:  The events (of the N.T.) are early 1st century.


Ah, I see now - but no they are not. The events of the New Testament are from the AD 60s.

If you look at the evidence, every non gospel text (and many in the gospels) points towards the Jesus story being located in the AD 60s, and Jesus being involved in the Jewish Revolt. In fact, the only reason for believing the AD 30s fiction, is the mention of Pilate.

Here are some of the reasons that point towards an AD 60s date...



The New Testament description of the fall of Jerusalem suggests a late AD 60s date.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench
about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side.
Lu 19:43

If the Essene's Teacher of Righteousness is Jesus, and Eisenmann links the Essene and Roman campaigns - this requires an AD 60s date.

Linking the murders of the NT's Zacharias of Barachias and Josephus' Zacharias of Baruch (in the Temple) requires a later date.

If the election of the NT's Matthias in Acts was actually the election of H.P. Matthias ben Theophilus, this would require a later date.

Bishop Irenaeus says that Jesus was over 50 years old, which would require a later date.

If the parable of the vineyard owner was actually the story of Varus, from Josephus, who killed the 70 messengers of Philip - and this would require a later date.

If the biblical Jesus was actually Jesus of Gamala, this would require a later date.
(there is a great deal of synergy between these two characters, including both being
the leaders of rebel fishermen.)

If Jesus became High Priest of Jerusalem, as in in Hebrews 7, this requires a later date (AD 63, in fact.)
(Jesus of Gamala became High Priest in the AD 60s, as described by Josephus.)

If the description of the crucifixion scene in Josephus' Life (Vita) was actually the biblical crucifixion, this would require an AD 70 date.

If Mary and Martha of Beothus were the Bethany sisters, as Prof Robert Eiseman suggests, then this would require an AD 60s date.

The Talmud claims that Phineas the Robber killed Jesus. But Phineas the Robber was the Temple treasurer in AD 70

The Talmud claims that Jesus tried to become not simply King of Judaea, but also Emperor of Rome (III Sotah 46b), and this would require an AD 60s date as this happened after the demise of Nero ('bald head' means Caesar, while 'go up' means arise).

The Doctrine of Addai says that King Abgarus wrote letters to Jesus and got a reply. But the governor of Syria in this account is Cassius Longinus, who ruled Syria from AD 41 - 49.

The Doctrine then goes on to discuss later letters in this same saga, but these were under the Judaean governor Albinus, who ruled from AD 62 - 64

The Toledoth Yeshu says that Jesus was tried before Queen Helena, not Pontius Pilate, and this would suggest an AD 50s date.

The Vulgate Cycle of Arthurian legend says that Joseph of Arimathaea came to England because of the 'storm of persecution' against the proto-Christians and Jews. This has to be the fall of Jerusalem, in AD 70.

The Vulgate Cycle contains a copy of the N.T. story, but has to jump 40 years (by making Joseph fall asleep for 40 years) to get Josephus of Arimathaea from the supposed death of Jesus in the AD 30s, to England after the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, and for him to still be middle-aged.

The Vulgate cycle says that Josephus Flavius was a 'witness to scripture'. This could only be so if the biblical events happened in the AD 60s, not the AD 30s.

The Vulgate Cycle says that the son of Josephus of Arimathaea was often confused with Josephus Flavius. Well yes, because Josephus of Arimathaea and Josephus Flavius were the same person - which is why Josephus includes a description of the crucifixion at the end of his Life (Vita).

The Vulgate Cycle has a description of Titus being cured by the image of Jesus on a cloth (obviously the cloth of Veronica, but the woman here is called Mary the Egyptian). But why Titus, the son of Vespasian? - clearly, these were events from the AD 60s and 70s, and the old woman called Mary was Mary the Mother of Jesus.




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03-04-2013, 05:10 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 06:41 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Water to Wine was a well-known trick jug
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