'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'

[Hughsie]

'We shouldn't stoop to their level'

What are anyone else's views on this statement? This is a statement that I vehemently reject. It's something me and Hylonome have discussed before and have wildly differing views on. When there's a news story about a particularly vicious criminal or cruel person my response is usually that there should be equally savage punishments for such people (serial killers, child rapists etc.) whereas Hylonome tends to feel that it is wrong to lower ourselves to their level.

I reject this idea because I think it's a get out of jail free card for anyone who does bad things. I hate the idea that some people treat their fellow humans little better than insects whilst then enjoying immunity from being treated that badly themselves, it just seems wrong.

Thoughts?

[aurora]

I was raised by my father to think that one shouldn't stoop to a wrongdoer's level but as I get older I tend to think the way you do, Mr Hughes. I suppose it depends on the particular state of mind of the perpetrator ie: did they know what they were doing was wrong? Are they a psychopath or sociopath? Are they mentally ill in some way?
Each case would be taken on its own merit and do unto others and all that...

[Atothetheist]

(24-09-2012 06:58 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  'We shouldn't stoop to their level'

What are anyone else's views on this statement? This is a statement that I vehemently reject. It's something me and Hylonome have discussed before and have wildly differing views on. When there's a news story about a particularly vicious criminal or cruel person my response is usually that there should be equally savage punishments for such people (serial killers, child rapists etc.) whereas Hylonome tends to feel that it is wrong to lower ourselves to their level.

I reject this idea because I think it's a get out of jail free card for anyone who does bad things. I hate the idea that some people treat their fellow humans little better than insects whilst then enjoying immunity from being treated that badly themselves, it just seems wrong.

Thoughts?

I like justice. To be justified is to be fair, inflinchingly fair. Fair to a good guy, and fair to a criminal.

Fuck not stoping down to their level, fair is fair. You kill somebody, I believe you deserve the fairest possible punishment.

Giving them mercy, especially when they have committed the gravest of crimes, in my book, is bordering irrationality.
I maybe a a bad, evil, and/or despicable guy saying that, but I value justice over mercy, and that's my stance on it.

[houseofcantor]

Ain't no lever lower than me.

With developments in neuroscience, this "lest we become monsters" ideology can be countered with, you know, monsters.

In reading the title of the OP, what came to mind is atheists saying shit like that, as if atheism makes a moral claim. It doesn't. I'm an asshole anti-theist kinda atheist, and that's just tough shit.

[bemore]

Here is how I see it.

If a person who is "sick" in the head....decides that they want to go out and do horrible, abhorrent and terrible things to people, in their head they give justifications for doing it....they have a "reason"

When that person gets caught and it is learnt of the terrible things that they do.... people get angry and would like to hurt these people in horrible, abhorrent and terrible ways, people who would normally be peacefull individuals (although it does take a certain kind of person to do these things) give justifications and "reasons" to do this to the perpetrator.... so to me, the person issuing the "justice" has to become a monster just as much as the..... monster.

Here is where the line gets blurry for me.... I think if somebody is "sick" or "mental" through no fault of their own, they are not really responsible to some degree for their actions... proving this level of responsibilty is hard though. So I would say that they dont deserve really to be hurt.

Now if somebody is fully in charge of their own head... who know the possible consequences... then really they should be held accountable of course.

I just think its a fine line between calling somebody "evil"..... to then become "evil" yourself for retribution.

[Vosur]

(24-09-2012 06:58 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I reject this idea because I think it's a get out of jail free card for anyone who does bad things. I hate the idea that some people treat their fellow humans little better than insects whilst then enjoying immunity from being treated that badly themselves, it just seems wrong.

Thoughts?

Locking someone up in prison for a lifetime instead of executing him is considered a "get out of jail" free card? Interesting.

[morondog]

I'm on the side of not killing people. Or torturing them. On what basis can I condemn those acts, if I do them or encourage them myself. "But he did it first" ? Weak.

[morondog]

Unless we go with the morality of "might makes right" which is a perfectly logical position to take. Then I can say "well you tortured someone else, and *because I'm stronger than you* it's perfectly morally OK for me to do the same to you". I still don't see how I can then say "but it's wrong for you to do that to others," if I'm allowed to do it to you.

[cheapthrillseaker]

I bet I'm completely off the ball, but here we go:

A person does a horrific detestable thing, and gets caught.

If there was an 'equally savage punishment' as Hughsie puts it, shouldn't the person giving the punishment also receive the same punishment? Or maybe the person giving out the order, if the Punisher (hehe) is exempt from it, should?

The rise to power of people wanting to escape the law, and yet still wanting to have sick fun would rise... ah, it would. Or it wouldn't, and I'd be too scared to leave the house.

"Step right up! Your turn to be receive equally savage punishment should be available in your lifetime. We haven't calculated it all, but suspect the numbers to grow proportionally."

[Hughsie]

Don't get me wrong. I understand that there is no viable way of making the justice system proportionate. I'm just saying that if there was it's something I would be in favour of.