'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
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27-09-2012, 08:49 AM
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
(27-09-2012 08:25 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  That is not the question. The question is this: Is vengeance necessary or right?

Let me ask you this. Do you think violent psychopaths should be killed if they have murdered?

It's right.

With the psychopath it depends on whether he was aware of his actions and the consequences to other people of them. If so, then yeah, he should die.

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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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27-09-2012, 08:55 AM
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
If I were a person with something in my brain that misfired and I ended up murdering people, I would want to die rather than live in jail.

To me, death would be the kind way of solving the issue, being jailed would be extreme punishment for the rest of my life.

I don't think humanists consider that a lot of psychopaths may feel that way.

Irks me that people keep running around saying that death is worse than jail.

That is a subjective opinion.

If you are going to be humanist, people should be given a choice.

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27-09-2012, 08:59 AM
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
(27-09-2012 08:49 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 08:25 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  That is not the question. The question is this: Is vengeance necessary or right?

Let me ask you this. Do you think violent psychopaths should be killed if they have murdered?

It's right.

With the psychopath it depends on whether he was aware of his actions and the consequences to other people of them. If so, then yeah, he should die.

Really? Tell me how you can justify it reasonably.

Psychopaths and sociopaths are both incapable of empathy. They make up a large amount of murders.

(27-09-2012 08:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  If I were a person with something in my brain that misfired and I ended up murdering people, I would want to die rather than live in jail.

To me, death would be the kind way of solving the issue, being jailed would be extreme punishment for the rest of my life.

I don't think humanists consider that a lot of psychopaths may feel that way.

Irks me that people keep running around saying that death is worse than jail.

That is a subjective opinion.

If you are going to be humanist, people should be given a choice.

I highly doubt that.

How do you not see jail as a resolution?

Psychopaths are incapable of feeling empathy.

I agree.

No.

Perhaps.

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27-09-2012, 09:01 AM
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
(27-09-2012 08:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Really? Tell me how you can justify it reasonably.

Psychopaths and sociopaths are both incapable of empathy. They make up a large amount of murders.

It's a very fine line between being mentally impaired and simply being a natural asshole.

My reaction to someone would depend on which side of that line I felt they fell.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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27-09-2012, 09:02 AM
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
(27-09-2012 08:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 08:49 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  It's right.

With the psychopath it depends on whether he was aware of his actions and the consequences to other people of them. If so, then yeah, he should die.

Really? Tell me how you can justify it reasonably.

Psychopaths and sociopaths are both incapable of empathy. They make up a large amount of murders.

(27-09-2012 08:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  If I were a person with something in my brain that misfired and I ended up murdering people, I would want to die rather than live in jail.

To me, death would be the kind way of solving the issue, being jailed would be extreme punishment for the rest of my life.

I don't think humanists consider that a lot of psychopaths may feel that way.

Irks me that people keep running around saying that death is worse than jail.

That is a subjective opinion.

If you are going to be humanist, people should be given a choice.

I highly doubt that.

How do you not see jail as a resolution?

Psychopaths are incapable of feeling empathy.

I agree.

No.

Perhaps.

Jail would be hell on earth to me.

Death would be peace.

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27-09-2012, 09:04 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2012 09:08 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
(27-09-2012 09:01 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 08:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Really? Tell me how you can justify it reasonably.

Psychopaths and sociopaths are both incapable of empathy. They make up a large amount of murders.

It's a very fine line between being mentally impaired and simply being a natural asshole.

My reaction to someone would depend on which side of that line I felt they fell.

Tell me, do you support negative eugenics?

Quote:Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1][2] from the Ancient Greek ψυχή "psyche", -soul, mind and πάθος, "pathos" -suffering, disease, condition[3][4]) is a personality disorder that has been variously described as characterized by shallow emotions (in particular reduced fear), stress tolerance, lacking empathy, coldheartedness, lacking guilt, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity and antisocial behaviors such as parasitic lifestyle and criminality. There is no consensus about the symptom criteria and there are ongoing debates regarding issues such as essential features, causes, and the possibility of treatment.[5]

Quote:Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is described by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), as an Axis II personality disorder characterized by "...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."[1]
The World Health Organization's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems', tenth edition (ICD-10), defines a conceptually similar disorder to antisocial personality disorder called (F60.2) Dissocial personality disorder.[2]

I am still waiting for you to justify an unnecessary vendetta.

(27-09-2012 09:02 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 08:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Really? Tell me how you can justify it reasonably.

Psychopaths and sociopaths are both incapable of empathy. They make up a large amount of murders.


I highly doubt that.

How do you not see jail as a resolution?

Psychopaths are incapable of feeling empathy.

I agree.

No.

Perhaps.

Jail would be hell on earth to me.

Death would be peace.

Again, I believe your position would change if you were actually encountered with the choice.

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27-09-2012, 09:09 AM
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
(27-09-2012 09:04 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Tell me, do you support negative eugenics?

I can see why it may be advantageous but no, I'm not in favour.

I just think that some people who are just naturally cruel and nasty try to hide behind claiming it's a mental illness when it isn't. They are just assholes.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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27-09-2012, 09:23 AM
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
(27-09-2012 08:23 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  It's about both. Why should a child rapist be considered above facing vengeance?

On the flip side of that, I ask you how willing are you to face the fact that you can't have 100% accuracy in a corruptible system, and I'm speaking about any system in which humans are involved. I'm not denying the fact that when I hear about heinous crimes I want to see the people responsible pay, but a just society has to be above the bloodlust induced by savagery.
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27-09-2012, 09:27 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2012 09:32 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
(27-09-2012 09:09 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(27-09-2012 09:04 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Tell me, do you support negative eugenics?

I can see why it may be advantageous but no, I'm not in favour.

I just think that some people who are just naturally cruel and nasty try to hide behind claiming it's a mental illness when it isn't. They are just assholes.

I see negatives outweighing positives. Not only am I not in favor, I am greatly apposed. Only a psychopath would support it.

It is a mental illness that they cannot help. Very rarely do they, themselves, use it as a defense. Scientists and doctors who specialize in the fields of neurology, psychology, and genetics have found that it is a genuine disability. You may think they are assholes, but they don't know and can't know what an asshole is. As I said, they are incapable of empathy.

Your justifications for the death penalty are poor.

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27-09-2012, 09:34 AM
RE: 'We Shouldn't Stoop To Their Level'
(27-09-2012 09:23 AM)GabrielSun Wrote:  On the flip side of that, I ask you how willing are you to face the fact that you can't have 100% accuracy in a corruptible system, and I'm speaking about any system in which humans are involved.

For the third time, I'm not suggesting we should start shooting criminals. I totally get there is no way you can have a fool-proof justice system, I totally get mistakes will always happen. That is why I am not proposing punishments that are equal to the crime.

I'm saying that I agree with the general principle of "stooping to their level" but would never condone it happening as I think it is unworkable. If it helps think about if a God (or any omnipotent being) did exist and offered you a 100% fool-proof way of ensuring your justice system never made any sort of mistake or error of judgement and was always perfectly objective, would you still be against tougher sentence that were designed to simply punish rather than rehabilitate for the worst offenders?

This is all purely hypothetical. That is why it's in 'Philosophy' and not 'Politics'. If you wanna respond with a post about how such a system is unworkable or has too great a margin for error then you're missing my point.

GabrielSun, that wasn't aimed purely at you by the way. I feel half the people reading this thread are missing my point and so I'm just trying to make sure I'm absolutely clear on what I mean. Smile

GabrielSun Wrote:I'm not denying the fact that when I hear about heinous crimes I want to see the people responsible pay, but a just society has to be above the bloodlust induced by savagery.

I'm not sure I would call it bloodlust. I still think this way even when I'm calm. I simply do not see why a person should go out and inflict terrible crimes on someone whilst knowing the repercussions cannot be as severe as their actions.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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