We are all born atheists?
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10-03-2014, 06:03 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:30 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  What I do NOT reject, from an epistemic viewpoint, is the possibility of gods. This makes me an agnostic atheist: I lack belief in gods, but do not claim certainty in their non-existence. I hold to the viewpoint that since humans are fallible creatures, we can NEVER declare 100% certainty on ANYTHING. On the other hand, a gnostic atheist DOES reject the possibility of gods (actually a pretty rare group and usually only found in the most militant of anti-theist circles).

Well, sure, but the set of logically coherent and non-interventionist 'gods' is so far removed from what most mean by the term that it's almost not even worth applying.

The fundamental limits of epistemology are rarely of such concern in other spheres. When I say I 'know' something in nearly every other conceivable context, I needn't throw in the rider that "well of course true perfect knowledge is an unattainable abstract and my own statements are bounded by the limits of my own cognizance, understanding, experience" just to appease the unpleasable.

I think rather the useful distinction is not to what degree one is certain of anything (there are, for instance, certain physical truths I am immeasurably sure of), but whether one is willing to admit of revision. What I know, or indeed what I think I know, is much less important than what I am willing to entertain.

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10-03-2014, 06:08 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 05:39 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 05:32 PM)Charis Wrote:  We wouldn't say a baby is ignorant of Santa Claus, but of the story of Santa Claus. Rather than saying a baby is ignorant of the existence or knowledge of God, it would be better to say a baby is ignorant of the claims and the information regarding the Christian deity and the other deities available so far.

If we were to say a person is ignorant of thermodynamics, that is an implied statement that thermodynamics is a fact (this is not an implied statement that it is NOT a fact, just for the record... it's only an example). Or gravity. Or photosynthesis.

Saying a person (baby or otherwise) is ignorant of the existence of God (Christian or otherwise) is an implied claim of the existence of God. It's presupposing this existence as fact.

I have already made the distinction between god and the IDEA and/or BELIEF of god.

You keep ignoring this though, for some reason.

In my post above, I was talking mostly about a baby's ignorance of an idea vs. a baby's ignorance of God.

You were asking how you were mis-using the term ignorance, and I'm saying (perhaps unsuccessfully) what using that term could imply without certain qualifications.
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10-03-2014, 10:11 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 10:14 PM by donotwant.)
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 06:08 PM)Charis Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 05:39 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  I have already made the distinction between god and the IDEA and/or BELIEF of god.

You keep ignoring this though, for some reason.

In my post above, I was talking mostly about a baby's ignorance of an idea vs. a baby's ignorance of God.

You were asking how you were mis-using the term ignorance, and I'm saying (perhaps unsuccessfully) what using that term could imply without certain qualifications.
Ignorance means not being aware of something. If I am not aware of something for whatever reason I am ignorant of it.
Another definition is if I don't know something I am ignorant of it.
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11-03-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 05:39 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 05:32 PM)Charis Wrote:  We wouldn't say a baby is ignorant of Santa Claus, but of the story of Santa Claus. Rather than saying a baby is ignorant of the existence or knowledge of God, it would be better to say a baby is ignorant of the claims and the information regarding the Christian deity and the other deities available so far.

If we were to say a person is ignorant of thermodynamics, that is an implied statement that thermodynamics is a fact (this is not an implied statement that it is NOT a fact, just for the record... it's only an example). Or gravity. Or photosynthesis.

Saying a person (baby or otherwise) is ignorant of the existence of God (Christian or otherwise) is an implied claim of the existence of God. It's presupposing this existence as fact.

I have already made the distinction between god and the IDEA and/or BELIEF of god.

You keep ignoring this though, for some reason.

You claim to make the distinction, and then you turn around and try to blur it. Can you say, "Disingenuous"?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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11-03-2014, 10:06 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 05:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 11:33 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Oh, look -- more semantic prestidigitation. The fact that you and I don't believe in fucking unicorns doesn't mean we "reject unicorns".

I'm not being petty, I'm calling you on your bullshit.

Give it a fucking rest, Taq.

The OP is being polite, calm, and engaging. There is no need for your aggressive crap.

Piss off. A veneer of politeness doesn't make it any less a troll.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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11-03-2014, 10:19 AM
We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 05:25 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 09:42 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  But not for the confusion of the terms "ignorant" and "absence"?

Interesting.

How did I misuse the word 'ignorant'?

Is a baby not ignorant?

Perhaps I'm stuck on the connotations of "ignorant," in that it implies rejection, and is curious phrasing coupled with phrases like "anti-theism" for a narrative about atheism.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
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11-03-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(11-03-2014 10:19 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 05:25 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  How did I misuse the word 'ignorant'?

Is a baby not ignorant?

Perhaps I'm stuck on the connotations of "ignorant," in that it implies rejection, and is curious phrasing coupled with phrases like "anti-theism" for a narrative about atheism.

It is playing fast and loose with definitions of "ignorant" -- a pattern it has already established. See: "Equivocation Fallacy". Also: "Quibbling".

Also bone up on: "Concern Troll" and its variants.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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11-03-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 11:25 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Kinda

It IS rejection of a claim NOT the rejection of the object of the claim.

Theist: "I claim that a god exists"
Atheist: " I reject your claim"
Not...
Atheist: "I reject your god"

I reject their "god" but then again I reject any god that is spiteful, cruel and petty!

Onward, my faithful steed!
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11-03-2014, 11:30 AM
We are all born atheists?
(11-03-2014 10:49 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 10:19 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Perhaps I'm stuck on the connotations of "ignorant," in that it implies rejection, and is curious phrasing coupled with phrases like "anti-theism" for a narrative about atheism.

It is playing fast and loose with definitions of "ignorant" -- a pattern it has already established. See: "Equivocation Fallacy". Also: "Quibbling".

Also bone up on: "Concern Troll" and its variants.

"Concern trolls can be identified primarily because they will retreat from, rather than engage with or be convinced by, answers to the questions they pose."

That's spot on.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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11-03-2014, 11:39 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(11-03-2014 11:30 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 10:49 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  It is playing fast and loose with definitions of "ignorant" -- a pattern it has already established. See: "Equivocation Fallacy". Also: "Quibbling".

Also bone up on: "Concern Troll" and its variants.

"Concern trolls can be identified primarily because they will retreat from, rather than engage with or be convinced by, answers to the questions they pose."

That's spot on.

Ah, they begin to see the light...




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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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