We are all born atheists?
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09-03-2014, 09:06 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
gnostic = gnostic
agnostic = not gnostic
theist = theist
atheist = not a theist
anti-theist = against theism
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09-03-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 08:33 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 08:29 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Yeah, what donotwant said. Atheism is nothing more than not believing in god(s), so if we are born without knowledge of them, we are born atheists.

In fact, if you introduce most young children to the idea of god(s) for the first time, they'll act like you're crazy

So atheism is a 'non-belief'(ignorance) more so than a 'rejection' of a belief?

It can be either. The lack of belief would be agnostic atheism. The "rejection", as you word it, would be gnostic atheism.

I consider myself an agnostic atheist, as well as many (most?) of the other posters in this forum.
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09-03-2014, 09:34 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2014 09:40 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 08:33 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 08:29 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Yeah, what donotwant said. Atheism is nothing more than not believing in god(s), so if we are born without knowledge of them, we are born atheists.

In fact, if you introduce most young children to the idea of god(s) for the first time, they'll act like you're crazy

So atheism is a 'non-belief'(ignorance) more so than a 'rejection' of a belief?

But doesn't the 'A' before 'theism' technically mean 'against'? So it would mean 'against theism', right?

And most children I know come to the belief in God without a fuss.

Wrong again. That would be "anti" or "contra", not "a".
The fact that "most children come to belief without a fuss" is :
a. irrelevant. In your little world, "most children" begin to sin, without a fuss. Are you equating belief with sin ?
Since when is "without a fuss" a criteria for anything.
b. the ad populum fallacy
c. most children come to believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa without a fuss.
Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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09-03-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 08:33 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  So atheism is a 'non-belief'(ignorance) more so than a 'rejection' of a belief?

But doesn't the 'A' before 'theism' technically mean 'against'? So it would mean 'against theism', right?

And most children I know come to the belief in God without a fuss.

Your use of the word "ignorance" is leading and pejorative. I do not yet know if you intend it that way, or only say it out of ...well...ignorance...

If I told you your disbelief in the "goat god of Juniper Hill" is only out of ignorance, you would still not believe in the "goat god of Juniper Hill". I could say that the only reason you don't believe in the goat god is because of your ignorance, but that wouldn't be a fair thing for me to say, for multiple reasons.

In fact, if I hadn't just made up the "goat god of Juniper Hill" you wouldn't have to claim to be agoatgodist, and you would still not have believed in it regardless of my telling you about the "goat god". That's the difference. You could claim it, or not claim it. It's just about belief or lack of belief. Not rejection. I've never rejected "God", because there is nothing there for me to reject.

Either way...I was born an atheist in the sense that I did not believe, but neither did you. I didn't know that it was a word until I was in about 6th or 7th grade, at which time I accepted it as an accurate description. If I never accepted the term, I would still have the same view point, just use different language to describe myself. It's not really about the word, it's about belief or lack there of.

...
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09-03-2014, 10:47 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 08:36 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 08:33 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  So atheism is a 'non-belief'(ignorance) more so than a 'rejection' of a belief?

But doesn't the 'A' before 'theism' technically mean 'against'? So it would mean 'against theism', right?

And most children I know come to the belief in God without a fuss.

Ignorance? No... Try "hasn't been indoctrinated yet".

The 'A' stands for "not" or "non" if I remember correctly, so no...

Being anti religion or against religion is an anti-theist.

I've always understood 'anti-theist' to be someone who doesn't just necessarily disagree or reject theism, but is AGAINST is theism.
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09-03-2014, 10:51 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 08:37 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  The "a" doesn't specifically mean anti. Asexual doesn't mean "anti sexual," it simply refers to the lack or sexual characteristics. A- is absence.

Good point.

So atheism is simply the lack of belief in God, regardless of said reason for their lack of belief? They could have come to it themselves, or are just not aware of the idea of God. Both would be atheism?
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09-03-2014, 10:53 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 08:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 08:23 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Several atheists I have encountered have suggested this, and I find it interesting.

To be an atheist, you first need knowledge of theism, in order to reject it. No?

Atheism is a position one takes, where they have come to realize that there is no God, or rather that there is no evidence in which to believe in God.

When atheists suggest that we are all born atheists, I think what they mean is that we are born ignorant of the idea of god. But then again, babies are entirely ignorant to many things; but these many things do surely exist in the material world, they just haven't encountered them yet.

So it's not that we're born 'rejecting' God as much as we're born ignorant of God.

Wrong again.
A-symptomatic. Absence of symptoms.
A-symmetrical. Absence of symmetry.
A-theist. Absence of theism.

There is nothing further implied by "absence".
You are an atheist, except for the one deity your culture indoctrinated you into.
Humans learn. They are not born with theism. The probability is overwhelming that if you were born into another faith, you would buy into that faith.

“We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

There is no "position" implied by the dismissal of crap ideas.
You're saying the position that there is no 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto is a belief system.

Sadcryface
The absence of belief is not belief in absence.

I think I am conflating the purpose of the conception of the term 'atheism', and its inherent usage. Clearly 'atheism' was in response to 'theism', as it is in the term itself.
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09-03-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
Christopher Hitchens, my hero, was an antitheist. He was against religion, but he also meant antitheist to mean he wouldn't even WANT there to be a god, that he is against it altogether. If there were a god, he would hate him regardless.

Check out my atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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09-03-2014, 11:02 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 09:00 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Nope. Strawman much? Atheism isn't necessarily a rejection of theism, it simply means "not theist". One doesn't have to hear a fairy tale to not believe in it.

Okay, that makes more sense then. It's not a position, but a description.


(09-03-2014 09:00 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Not "ignorant". Strawman much?

Ignorant means "lacking knowledge". A baby certainly "lacks knowledge" of theism.

(09-03-2014 09:00 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Your fairy tale monster does not "surely exist". Not by a long shot. And again, you have failed to demonstrate that yours actually exists.

I was not suggesting that. My point was that just because a baby is ignorant of something, doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. I wasn't using that fact to suggest god exists.


(09-03-2014 09:00 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  That does not follow. It is neither a matter of "rejecting" your fairy tale monster (one can't "reject" something that doesn't exist), nor of being "ignorant of it", as again "it" would have to actually exist (which you have not shown) for one to be ignorant of "it".

Theism is the belief in God, not the existence of God.


(09-03-2014 09:00 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You keep trying to sneak the purported existence of your fairytale deity through the back door. It's not working.

Nope. You keep being presumptuous and obnoxious.
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09-03-2014, 11:03 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 09:23 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 08:33 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  So atheism is a 'non-belief'(ignorance) more so than a 'rejection' of a belief?

It can be either. The lack of belief would be agnostic atheism. The "rejection", as you word it, would be gnostic atheism.

I consider myself an agnostic atheist, as well as many (most?) of the other posters in this forum.

Isn't rejection inherent in the lack of belief?
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