We are all born atheists?
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09-03-2014, 11:07 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 09:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 08:33 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  So atheism is a 'non-belief'(ignorance) more so than a 'rejection' of a belief?

But doesn't the 'A' before 'theism' technically mean 'against'? So it would mean 'against theism', right?

And most children I know come to the belief in God without a fuss.

Wrong again. That would be "anti" or "contra", not "a".
The fact that "most children come to belief without a fuss" is :
a. irrelevant. In your little world, "most children" begin to sin, without a fuss. Are you equating belief with sin ?
Since when is "without a fuss" a criteria for anything.
b. the ad populum fallacy
c. most children come to believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa without a fuss.
Weeping

Yes, I had forgotten about 'anti-theism'. Thank you.

And my point about children was simply is disagreement with the earlier poster on how they generally react to the idea of God. He/she stated that they react rejection, but I don't think that is the case. Most children buy into whatever their parents tell them. Many young kids think superheroes exist just because they see them on tv.
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09-03-2014, 11:07 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 11:03 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 09:23 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It can be either. The lack of belief would be agnostic atheism. The "rejection", as you word it, would be gnostic atheism.

I consider myself an agnostic atheist, as well as many (most?) of the other posters in this forum.

Isn't rejection inherent in the lack of belief?

While the two are commonly found together, rejection is not inherent in the lack of belief. It could just be a matter of not being convinced.
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09-03-2014, 11:08 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 08:23 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Several atheists I have encountered have suggested this, and I find it interesting.

To be an atheist, you first need knowledge of theism, in order to reject it. No?

Atheism is a position one takes, where they have come to realize that there is no God, or rather that there is no evidence in which to believe in God.

When atheists suggest that we are all born atheists, I think what they mean is that we are born ignorant of the idea of god. But then again, babies are entirely ignorant to many things; but these many things do surely exist in the material world, they just haven't encountered them yet.

So it's not that we're born 'rejecting' God as much as we're born ignorant of God.

Side Note: I have not read any comments passed the first page.

You seem to be confused on the meaning of the term 'atheism'. The highlighted passage in green is correct. Though, just because we don't believe in a God, doesn't mean we reject it. Tricky wording there.

The passage I crossed out has nothing to do with being born an atheist. A good comparison would be, if a republican couple had a baby, would you call it a republican as well? Of course not! The baby does not have the information needed to make an informed choice. There is no such thing as a theistic baby just as there is no such thing as a political baby.

As for the term 'rejection'when referring to an atheist, that is incorrect. Everyone is an atheist when referring to one God or another, but does that mean you reject them? No, it just means you don't care. The Anzande supreme God Onyame [who created the world and all lesser Gods] has no influence on your life nor [probably] anyone you know. Do you reject him? No, you just don't care [or know].

"We are all atheists, some of us just go one god further."

Atir aissom atir imon
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09-03-2014, 11:10 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 10:57 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Christopher Hitchens, my hero, was an antitheist. He was against religion, but he also meant antitheist to mean he wouldn't even WANT there to be a god, that he is against it altogether. If there were a god, he would hate him regardless.

Yes, that's my understanding of it as well.
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09-03-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 11:03 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 09:23 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It can be either. The lack of belief would be agnostic atheism. The "rejection", as you word it, would be gnostic atheism.

I consider myself an agnostic atheist, as well as many (most?) of the other posters in this forum.

Isn't rejection inherent in the lack of belief?

So you are going to try to equivocate the meaning of "rejection" as well?

You don't "reject" something that doesn't exist.

There are plenty of atheists who reject your fairy stories.

That doesn't mean that you can infer that we "reject your gawd". Your gawd would have to actually exist for us to "reject" it.

And you have yet to demonstrate, with sufficient evidence, that such a thing exists. You aren't going to get anywhere until you do. Which you can't.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-03-2014, 11:14 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 11:08 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 08:23 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Several atheists I have encountered have suggested this, and I find it interesting.

To be an atheist, you first need knowledge of theism, in order to reject it. No?

Atheism is a position one takes, where they have come to realize that there is no God, or rather that there is no evidence in which to believe in God.

When atheists suggest that we are all born atheists, I think what they mean is that we are born ignorant of the idea of god. But then again, babies are entirely ignorant to many things; but these many things do surely exist in the material world, they just haven't encountered them yet.

So it's not that we're born 'rejecting' God as much as we're born ignorant of God.

Side Note: I have not read any comments passed the first page.

You seem to be confused on the meaning of the term 'atheism'. The highlighted passage in green is correct. Though, just because we don't believe in a God, doesn't mean we reject it. Tricky wording there.

The passage I crossed out has nothing to do with being born an atheist. A good comparison would be, if a republican couple had a baby, would you call it a republican as well? Of course not! The baby does not have the information needed to make an informed choice. There is no such thing as a theistic baby just as there is no such thing as a political baby.

As for the term 'rejection'when referring to an atheist, that is incorrect. Everyone is an atheist when referring to one God or another, but does that mean you reject them? No, it just means you don't care. The Anzande supreme God Onyame [who created the world and all lesser Gods] has no influence on your life nor [probably] anyone you know. Do you reject him? No, you just don't care [or know].

"We are all atheists, some of us just go one god further."

Yes, I understand now. 'Atheism' is a description, not necessarily a position.

Thank you.
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09-03-2014, 11:15 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 11:07 PM)Charis Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 11:03 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Isn't rejection inherent in the lack of belief?

While the two are commonly found together, rejection is not inherent in the lack of belief. It could just be a matter of not being convinced.

Not being convinced, and thus rejecting it. Right?
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09-03-2014, 11:21 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2014 11:27 PM by DLJ.)
RE: We are all born atheists?
I'm pleased to see you, ShimJim, back asking more questions and that the abrasive style of some of our members here didn't put you off.

I think that the original usage of the word (atheist) was by the Greeks to describe the Jewish monotheists because they did not believe in the Greek gods.

It was later used by the Romans to describe Christians.

So from the start it meant 'non-believer'.

The meme about 'everyone is born atheist' is strictly true but not that useful in debate and is mainly used to counter a comment like "I was born Muslim".

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09-03-2014, 11:21 PM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 11:11 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 11:03 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Isn't rejection inherent in the lack of belief?

So you are going to try to equivocate the meaning of "rejection" as well?

You don't "reject" something that doesn't exist.

There are plenty of atheists who reject your fairy stories.

That doesn't mean that you can infer that we "reject your gawd". Your gawd would have to actually exist for us to "reject" it.

And you have yet to demonstrate, with sufficient evidence, that such a thing exists. You aren't going to get anywhere until you do. Which you can't.

Theism: BELIEF in the existence of a God or Gods.

So atheism a rejection of the belief, and thus what is believed (ie. God).

I think you're being petty.
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09-03-2014, 11:25 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2014 11:29 PM by DLJ.)
RE: We are all born atheists?
Kinda

It IS rejection of a claim NOT the rejection of the object of the claim.

Theist: "I claim that a god exists"
Atheist: " I reject your claim"
Not...
Atheist: "I reject your god"

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