We are all born atheists?
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10-03-2014, 12:32 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
You know what we are saying. You seem like a sharp person. You don't seem to be accepting our answers though. It seems like you are wanting someone to say they're rejecting God, rejecting Jesus, rejecting *fill in the blank.* If you are NOT, understand that you have a funny way of showing it. You're not saying,"Oh... okay..." You keep APPEARING to try to get someone to slip up and accidentally be trapped into saying they're rejecting something.

Now, I don't know if I'm Theist or Agnostic or WHAT I AM, but I can tell you that these lawyer games are not cool. Please stop. I understand that theology has it that anyone who is not accepting Christ is rejecting Christ, whether they realize they are or not. A person who is truly asking in order to learn will do just that... ask questions in order to learn from the people they are asking. If you are not, then you are simply trying to LEAD people to a certain conclusion while trying to maintain a front of a genuinely inquisitive person.

If you are not trying to maintain a front, your best approach would be to ask a question and take the answers and ask more questions if you don't understand. Make sure you are not asking questions, and then making it appear as if you're trying to get the unwary to slip into a certain conclusion real quick so that you can use that to springboard into whatever witnessing effort comes next. This would seem VERY underhanded and manipulative. You ought to be "avoiding the appearance of evil." So if this is not your intention, make sure you don't accidentally make it LOOK like this is what you're trying to do.
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10-03-2014, 12:35 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:24 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:19 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Taq, not to be rude, but why do you always [seemingly] attack the new comers? Some are trolls yes, but you gotta at least give them a chance or it's you who comes off as an ass, and not the troll.
I've seen other replies to you of this nature, though I'm just becoming aware of it. I used to think you were cool with everyone, not just atheists. What changed?

You see that (s)he has already started yet ANOTHER thread trolling inane bullshit that has been done to death in this forum a thousand times over, right? Are you picking up a pattern yet?

I think your use of the term 'troll' is misplaced here. S/he doesn't seem to be trying to piss anyone off or disrupt the forums. Just seems like a question to me [but I haven't read all the comments, just this last page].
Yes, this question has been done to death, but everyone thinks they're original. Just let it go if it bugs you, there's no need to be rude about it. That just makes things worse if the new commer is sincere.

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10-03-2014, 12:35 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
I'm not saying that's what you ARE doing (if you are, knock it off). I'm just saying to be careful that you don't even COME ACROSS in that way, because that would come across as pretty rude, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to do that.
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10-03-2014, 12:39 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:30 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  What I do NOT reject, from an epistemic viewpoint, is the possibility of gods. This makes me an agnostic atheist: I lack belief in gods, but do not claim certainty in their non-existence. I hold to the viewpoint that since humans are fallible creatures, we can NEVER declare 100% certainty on ANYTHING. On the other hand, a gnostic atheist DOES reject the possibility of gods (actually a pretty rare group and usually only found in the most militant of anti-theist circles).

As for Taq, my advice is to ignore him. Despite the fact that a majority of your posts have been genuine inquires and that you have admitted to mistakes on your part, which seem to support the idea that you are here to learn what atheism actually is, he's gotten the idea in his head that you are here to sneak in apologetic bullshit through the backdoor. Frankly, I don't think he has the intellectual maturity to even consider reevaluating his position.Trust me, you won't be missing much. Drinking Beverage

That reminds me of 'possibilianism'(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possibilianism), which always seemed silly to me, since there is a 'possibility' almost anything, that it's kind of an empty idea.

And thank you for your support, that Taq guy really has it out for me. Undecided
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10-03-2014, 12:41 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:32 AM)Charis Wrote:  You know what we are saying. You seem like a sharp person. You don't seem to be accepting our answers though. It seems like you are wanting someone to say they're rejecting God, rejecting Jesus, rejecting *fill in the blank.* If you are NOT, understand that you have a funny way of showing it. You're not saying,"Oh... okay..." You keep APPEARING to try to get someone to slip up and accidentally be trapped into saying they're rejecting something.

Now, I don't know if I'm Theist or Agnostic or WHAT I AM, but I can tell you that these lawyer games are not cool. Please stop. I understand that theology has it that anyone who is not accepting Christ is rejecting Christ, whether they realize they are or not. A person who is truly asking in order to learn will do just that... ask questions in order to learn from the people they are asking. If you are not, then you are simply trying to LEAD people to a certain conclusion while trying to maintain a front of a genuinely inquisitive person.

If you are not trying to maintain a front, your best approach would be to ask a question and take the answers and ask more questions if you don't understand. Make sure you are not asking questions, and then making it appear as if you're trying to get the unwary to slip into a certain conclusion real quick so that you can use that to springboard into whatever witnessing effort comes next. This would seem VERY underhanded and manipulative. You ought to be "avoiding the appearance of evil." So if this is not your intention, make sure you don't accidentally make it LOOK like this is what you're trying to do.

Uh... I'm pretty sure I have already said I agreed with you earlier.
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10-03-2014, 12:42 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:39 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:30 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  What I do NOT reject, from an epistemic viewpoint, is the possibility of gods. This makes me an agnostic atheist: I lack belief in gods, but do not claim certainty in their non-existence. I hold to the viewpoint that since humans are fallible creatures, we can NEVER declare 100% certainty on ANYTHING. On the other hand, a gnostic atheist DOES reject the possibility of gods (actually a pretty rare group and usually only found in the most militant of anti-theist circles).

As for Taq, my advice is to ignore him. Despite the fact that a majority of your posts have been genuine inquires and that you have admitted to mistakes on your part, which seem to support the idea that you are here to learn what atheism actually is, he's gotten the idea in his head that you are here to sneak in apologetic bullshit through the backdoor. Frankly, I don't think he has the intellectual maturity to even consider reevaluating his position.Trust me, you won't be missing much. Drinking Beverage

That reminds me of 'possibilianism'(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possibilianism), which always seemed silly to me, since there is a 'possibility' almost anything, that it's kind of an empty idea.

And thank you for your support, that Taq guy really has it out for me. Undecided

You're not the only one Laugh out load

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10-03-2014, 12:46 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:30 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 11:52 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  No, because a "lack of awareness" of <God exists> in the absence of empirical evidence denotes a bias for the existence of God.

"Lack of awareness" is presupposing <God exists> and gouging such a position special pleading.

No, she specifically said unaware of the idea of god, which does not possess bias towards the existence of one.

Yes, you are correct Shimmy, both would fall under atheism. A baby is born ignorant of the concept of god and is therefore, by default, an atheist, since the definition of atheism does not specify the reasons for coming to a lack of belief. However, it should be noted that anyone that identifies as an atheist HAS "rejected" the idea of gods.

I'd like to talk about the rejection a bit, since it seems to be causing a bit of confusion on your end (and I don't feel that it has satisfactorily been answered). It's not so much wholesale rejection as it is a rejection of aspects. For example, I reject a significant portion (though not all) gods for being logically invalid concepts (especially the omni-max ones), although ultimately the one common thread in my lack of a belief in all gods is a simple lack of evidence and a lack of an indication that any evidence will be found.

What I do NOT reject, from an epistemic viewpoint, is the possibility of gods. This makes me an agnostic atheist: I lack belief in gods, but do not claim certainty in their non-existence. I hold to the viewpoint that since humans are fallible creatures, we can NEVER declare 100% certainty on ANYTHING. On the other hand, a gnostic atheist DOES reject the possibility of gods (actually a pretty rare group and usually only found in the most militant of anti-theist circles).

Go ahead and ignore that (s)he keeps throwing presuppositional bullshit into her posts like "So it's not that we're born 'rejecting' God as much as we're born ignorant of God.". Willful ignorance much, asshole?

Quote:As for Taq, my advice is to ignore him. Despite the fact that a majority of your posts have been genuine inquires and that you have admitted to mistakes on your part, which seem to support the idea that you are here to learn what atheism actually is, he's gotten the idea in his head that you are here to sneak in apologetic bullshit through the backdoor. Frankly, I don't think he has the intellectual maturity to even consider reevaluating his position.Trust me, you won't be missing much. Drinking Beverage

You smelled a troll in "Miss Ming", I smell a troll here. Go fuck yourself.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-03-2014, 12:46 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:39 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:30 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  What I do NOT reject, from an epistemic viewpoint, is the possibility of gods. This makes me an agnostic atheist: I lack belief in gods, but do not claim certainty in their non-existence. I hold to the viewpoint that since humans are fallible creatures, we can NEVER declare 100% certainty on ANYTHING. On the other hand, a gnostic atheist DOES reject the possibility of gods (actually a pretty rare group and usually only found in the most militant of anti-theist circles).

As for Taq, my advice is to ignore him. Despite the fact that a majority of your posts have been genuine inquires and that you have admitted to mistakes on your part, which seem to support the idea that you are here to learn what atheism actually is, he's gotten the idea in his head that you are here to sneak in apologetic bullshit through the backdoor. Frankly, I don't think he has the intellectual maturity to even consider reevaluating his position.Trust me, you won't be missing much. Drinking Beverage

That reminds me of 'possibilianism'(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possibilianism), which always seemed silly to me, since there is a 'possibility' almost anything, that it's kind of an empty idea.

And thank you for your support, that Taq guy really has it out for me. Undecided

Indeed, it is a rather empty idea, hence why I limit it only into the realm of epistemology. It has very little influence on how I practically go about weighing ideas and making sense of the world around me. I merely view it as a statement of admitting humility on the fallible nature of knowledge.

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10-03-2014, 12:48 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
Jimmy, I'm fairly new here myself... within the last few days, in fact. In that very brief time, I have already seen some trolls of epic proportions, from the obvious to the devious. Unfortunately, most of them were Theists of one form or another.

You're going to need to make sure you remain transparent here. No bait and switches, no claiming to be an agnostic and then making it clear through behavior that you're a theist (this is lying), no "leading the witness" lines of questioning or that sort of tripe. Keep it honest, keep questioning honest (not "honest" as in "well I was ONLY AASKING" for totally different motive).

Basically.... please don't be a troll? Pretty please?
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10-03-2014, 12:49 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:35 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  [but I haven't read all the comments, just this last page].

Perhaps you should. Charis sees what I am talking about.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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