We are all born atheists?
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10-03-2014, 12:51 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:41 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Uh... I'm pretty sure I have already said I agreed with you earlier.

You did, yes.
Trolls seem to be a dime a dozen here. And Theist trolls, for whatever reason, use very similar lines of questioning. I'm just hoping you are for real, asking questions with no hidden motive. There was a troll here yesterday, so people (including myself) are on high alert. Tongue
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10-03-2014, 12:54 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 12:59 AM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:46 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Go ahead and ignore that (s)he keeps throwing presuppositional bullshit into her posts like "So it's not that we're born 'rejecting' God as much as we're born ignorant of God.". Willful ignorance much, asshole?

I do admit that her method of questioning is similar to the typical theist trolls.

Except actually ANALYZING her series of posts will make you realize these were questions of clarification on our viewpoints, not assertions of what we actually meant in our responses. She might be unaware of what her style of questioning appears to be like to some of us at first glance.

Quote:You smelled a troll in "Miss Ming", I smell a troll here. Go fuck yourself.

When the fuck was the last time you saw a troll concede points and admit honest mistakes? She's already done it several times in this thread, but you didn't pick up on that, did you?

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10-03-2014, 12:59 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
I'm gonna push my 2 centavos in here. Jimmy seems to be honestly asking these questions to learn more about atheism and atheists. I give her bonus points for acknowledging her misinterpretations when called out. However on my best objective evaluation she still has a veneer of cognitive dissonance (however thin) inherent in her questions, which pricked charis's radar a bit. Something to do with the semantic discussion on the "rejection" of theism. She has since acknowledged this as a poor choice of words (after a lengthy exchange which raised Taq's hackles up even more) and proceeded with her inquiries relatively more rationally than other theists ive seen here. A good inquisitive mind is rare enough these days.

To Jimmy. Welcome aboard and good inquiry so far. I do applaud your diplomatic approach and feel free to continue to plumb the depths. You can never go wrong with more knowledge. Understand though that some of your ideas have been addressed before, numerous times, and might generate a fair share of exasperation and even frustration. I hope you can look past this and continue examining things. Smile


If you don't want a sarcastic answer, don't ask stupid questions. Drinking Beverage
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10-03-2014, 01:22 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:54 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:46 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Go ahead and ignore that (s)he keeps throwing presuppositional bullshit into her posts like "So it's not that we're born 'rejecting' God as much as we're born ignorant of God.". Willful ignorance much, asshole?

I do admit that her method of questioning is similar to the typical theist trolls.

Yeah.

Quote:Except actually ANALYZING her series of posts will make you realize these were questions of clarification on our viewpoints, not assertions of what we actually meant in our responses. She might be unaware of what her style of questioning appears to be like to some of us at first glance.

You have to willfully ignore the constant misrepresentations of what we say and what she has said and been called out on.

Quote:
Quote:You smelled a troll in "Miss Ming", I smell a troll here. Go fuck yourself.

When the fuck was the last time you saw a troll concede points and admit honest mistakes? She's already done it several times in this thread, but you didn't pick up on that, did you?

I sure did, and DreckSack does it all the time, with minor points. But, like DreckSack, she continues to misrepresent, evade, equivocate, strawman, etc.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-03-2014, 02:57 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 08:23 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Several atheists I have encountered have suggested this, and I find it interesting.

To be an atheist, you first need knowledge of theism, in order to reject it. No?
No everyone is an Atheist!

You have already rejected so many Gods even though you very well know that they are also viable alternatives.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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10-03-2014, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 06:20 AM by RobbyPants.)
RE: We are all born atheists?
(09-03-2014 11:03 PM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  Isn't rejection inherent in the lack of belief?

No. A lack of belief is inherent in a rejection of a belief, but not necessarily the other way around. It's squares and rectangles. All square are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.


The idea is that gnosticism means that you feel your beliefs are knowable or even provable. Agnosticism means you don't. Theism is a belief in one or more gods. Atheism is not believing in one or more gods (regardless of whether you reject the gods or have a lack of belief in them). So, this leaves us with four combinations:

Gnostic theist: Believes in one or more gods and believes they can know they are correct. Perhaps they feel their god(s) in a way that is unmistakable or they feel they have proof of existence. If you ask this person how many gods there are, they'll say "one" (or whatever number they believe).

Agnostic theist: Believes in one or more gods, but doesn't believe it can be truly known or proven. Takes the belief on faith alone. If you ask this person how many gods there are, they'll say "I believe there is one" (or whatever number they believe).

Gnostic atheist: Believes there are no gods. If you ask this person how many gods there are, they'll say "zero".

Agnostic atheist: Doesn't believe in any gods, but does not state that no gods exist, as it is an unprovable statement (nonfalsifiable statements cannot be proven true or false). If you ask this person how many gods there are, they'll say "that is unknowable" or "I don't know".


Does this make more sense? One is asserting a negative claim that there are no gods, while the other is not making a positive claim that gods do exist. The latter is more intellectually honest in that it's not rejecting something that's nonfalsifiable and it also keeps you from having to prove an unprovable statement. I mean, I can't prove there aren't unicorns on Neptune, so I'm not going to definitively state that there aren't. That being said, I don't see any reason to believe there are, either.
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10-03-2014, 06:35 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
A person can be an athiest by either rejecting or by never haveing been exposed to it. Babies are athiest because they have not been exposed to it yet. If they never got exposed to god they would stay athiest. I think the onse that never get exposed to god do not have a term for lack of belief since they probably do not have one for belief either.
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10-03-2014, 06:37 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 10:47 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: We are all born atheists?
Sorry haven't read beyond the first page.

If the battle of memes only consisted of evaluating evidence and researching theories with the highest best known probability then religion would have died out long ago and we would all be scientifically literate critical thinkers. Instead it is a battle for emotions, conditioning and the normalisation of beliefs. Religion is just another a meme, a mental virus, which spreads, mutates, adapts and evolves.

Making a belief seem more normal is important. Imagine the ridicule a child would face if they were the only one in a class that believed in Santa Claus. Muslims for example believe that every baby is born with a natural faith in God and therefore refer to converts as reverts. Yet they never explain how a baby can have faith in God when it can't even make sense of its immediate environment or act meaningfully within it. The very concept of a revert is used to make the belief in a supernatural (i.e. magical non existent) being seem more normal.

Pointing out that we are all born atheists, while therefore being a logical tautology, like saying for example that black is not white, is useful in counteracting theists who are exploiting the fact that humans are not rational agents.
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10-03-2014, 07:40 AM
RE: We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:49 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 12:35 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  [but I haven't read all the comments, just this last page].

Perhaps you should. Charis sees what I am talking about.

Yes I see what s/he's saying, but he's not being rude about it. S/he's asking Jimmy nicely to stop.
You see Taq, I'm not saying you're wrong, quite the contrary. I'm saying how you go about it is unbeneficial to either party. Besides making yourself (and atheists - guilt by association) look bad, you put the troll in a better light and more people will be wanting to rush to his/her side.
Just be cool with the person until they really prove themselves, I'm not sure if you were ever religious, but if you were, then you should know how hard it is to break free of that thinking. There is a difference between using "religious logic" and a troll. It's slight, but it's there. Just don't make yourself into an ass, you're smarter than that Smile

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10-03-2014, 09:42 AM
We are all born atheists?
(10-03-2014 12:07 AM)shimmyjimmy Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 11:52 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  No, because a "lack of awareness" of <God exists> in the absence of empirical evidence denotes a bias for the existence of God.

"Lack of awareness" is presupposing <God exists> and gouging such a position special pleading.

I say "the idea of God" afterword, which is what I meant.

I apologize for the confusion.

But not for the confusion of the terms "ignorant" and "absence"?

Interesting.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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