We are all sinners?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-09-2017, 08:38 AM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2017 09:51 AM by BikerDude.)
We are all sinners?
I occurs to me that the most dishonest people I have ever known were also the most overtly religious.
I distinctly remember having a conversation with one of these people about politics and commenting about how dishonest some certain politician was. (Not current. It was a long time ago) And his honest reply was "well everybody is dishonest, it's just bla bla bla bla" etc. I was gobsmacked. And yet this person was a churchgoing, fox watching new conservative, OReilly believing yadda yadda. The whole package. And you honestly couldn't trust him as far as you could heave him with one arm. I mean office weasel stuff, tryna shift blame and take credit where not due etc. Yet I'm certain that they actually did see themselves as a "good person".
Is this the effect of lowered expectations of religion?
The view that we are all sinners and fallen. I've honestly puzzled over this.
It could go a long way toward explaining the weasel population which has exploded.

[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes BikerDude's post
08-09-2017, 10:04 AM
RE: We are all sinners?
(08-09-2017 08:38 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  I occurs to me that the most dishonest people I have ever known were also the most overtly religious.
I distinctly remember having a conversation with one of these people about politics and commenting about how dishonest some certain politician was. (Not current. It was a long time ago) And his honest reply was "well everybody is dishonest, it's just bla bla bla bla" etc. I was gobsmacked. And yet this person was a churchgoing, fox watching new conservative, OReilly believing yadda yadda. The whole package. And you honestly couldn't trust him as far as you could heave him with one arm. I mean office weasel stuff, tryna shift blame and take credit where not due etc. Yet I'm certain that they actually did see themselves as a "good person".
Is this the effect of lowered expectations of religion?
The view that we are all sinners and fallen. I've honestly puzzled over this.
It could go a long way toward explaining the weasel population which has exploded.

This is what I see in my hyper religious friend: All humans are bad from birth, because Eve. Because of this, all humans will continue to sin. Because of this, they must pray so god will forgive each sin. Because of this, good Christians are better off than others, because they are forgiven. Non Christians are permanently stained.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
08-09-2017, 10:26 AM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2017 10:36 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: We are all sinners?
(08-09-2017 10:04 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(08-09-2017 08:38 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  I occurs to me that the most dishonest people I have ever known were also the most overtly religious.
I distinctly remember having a conversation with one of these people about politics and commenting about how dishonest some certain politician was. (Not current. It was a long time ago) And his honest reply was "well everybody is dishonest, it's just bla bla bla bla" etc. I was gobsmacked. And yet this person was a churchgoing, fox watching new conservative, OReilly believing yadda yadda. The whole package. And you honestly couldn't trust him as far as you could heave him with one arm. I mean office weasel stuff, tryna shift blame and take credit where not due etc. Yet I'm certain that they actually did see themselves as a "good person".
Is this the effect of lowered expectations of religion?
The view that we are all sinners and fallen. I've honestly puzzled over this.
It could go a long way toward explaining the weasel population which has exploded.

This is what I see in my hyper religious friend: All humans are bad from birth, because Eve. Because of this, all humans will continue to sin. Because of this, they must pray so god will forgive each sin. Because of this, good Christians are better off than others, because they are forgiven. Non Christians are permanently stained.

Yeah and I've truly come to wonder if there isn't some aspect of it that manifests as a licence to be dishonest. I mean I just always assume that people are honest.
It seems that some Christians start at the other end of the spectrum and see whatever "white lies" they tell and manipulation as "not so bad".
I don't mean dishonest as in hypocritical. I mean open your mouth and say things that are lies. The people I've known that are most likely to do that, honestly I have to say that they were almost 100% Christian. And practicing Christians.
I mean think about the televangelists for instance.
I guess I've reached that place where I'm so Atheist I have a hard time believing that others aren't as well.
It could be a red herring because most people are Christian in one form or another. At least in this country.
So you get to a "a liar is a christian therefore all Christians are liars" fallacy.
But the functional effect of belief is what has me wondering.

[Image: 201501_1654_dfdgb_sm.jpg]

[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like BikerDude's post
08-09-2017, 10:35 AM
RE: We are all sinners?
(08-09-2017 10:26 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(08-09-2017 10:04 AM)Dom Wrote:  This is what I see in my hyper religious friend: All humans are bad from birth, because Eve. Because of this, all humans will continue to sin. Because of this, they must pray so god will forgive each sin. Because of this, good Christians are better off than others, because they are forgiven. Non Christians are permanently stained.

Yeah and I've truly come to wonder if there isn't some aspect of it that manifests as a licence to be dishonest. I mean I just always assume that people are honest.
It seems that some Christians start at the other end of the spectrum and see whatever "white lies" they tell and manipulation as "not so bad".
I don't mean dishonest as in hypocritical. I mean open your mouth and say things that are lies. The people I've known that are most likely to do that, honestly I have to say that they were almost 100% Christian. And practicing Christians.
I mean think about the televangelists for instance.
I guess I've reached that place where I'm so Atheist I have a hard time believing that others aren't as well.

When prayer squares everything away, you can sin however you like and still be ok. You don't have to be a good person.

I, too, believed for a long time that "good Christians" had to be nice to others. That does not seem to be the case at all. Being Christian is license to sin.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
08-09-2017, 10:40 AM
RE: We are all sinners?
(08-09-2017 10:35 AM)Dom Wrote:  When prayer squares everything away, you can sin however you like and still be ok. You don't have to be a good person.

I, too, believed for a long time that "good Christians" had to be nice to others. That does not seem to be the case at all. Being Christian is license to sin.

And to truly see your "sins" as no different from others people even though they are.
It's the expectation that everybody is a sinner that is the most maddening.

[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-09-2017, 10:53 AM
RE: We are all sinners?
I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here -- even though the whole Christian narrative of Adam & Eve and original sin and "we're all sinners" is obvious bullshit, there is a symbolic core of truth there.

1. We all have tendencies or temptations to do things that ultimately cause harm to ourselves or others, even though they seem pleasurable at the time. None of us is as "good" as he/she would like to be. I know I'm not, at least.

2. Actions have consequences. We don't deserve to be "born damned" because two people way back in ancient history ate some fruit that God told them not to eat. But children don't deserve to inherit their parent's diseases or addictions or poverty either, but it happens. Actions have consequences (for people other than those performing said actions), whether or not those consequences are intended or deserved. Or, as William Munny famously said, "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-09-2017, 11:13 AM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2017 11:25 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: We are all sinners?
(08-09-2017 10:53 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here -- even though the whole Christian narrative of Adam & Eve and original sin and "we're all sinners" is obvious bullshit, there is a symbolic core of truth there.

1. We all have tendencies or temptations to do things that ultimately cause harm to ourselves or others, even though they seem pleasurable at the time. None of us is as "good" as he/she would like to be. I know I'm not, at least.

2. Actions have consequences. We don't deserve to be "born damned" because two people way back in ancient history ate some fruit that God told them not to eat. But children don't deserve to inherit their parent's diseases or addictions or poverty either, but it happens. Actions have consequences (for people other than those performing said actions), whether or not those consequences are intended or deserved. Or, as William Munny famously said, "Deserve's got nothin' to do with it."

Yes but that would assume that Christians would process these "beliefs" like intelligent beings. Not like children.
Obviously the concept of original sin is not meant to make it ok to be a dick.
But it's possible that there are enough dim wits around that functionally it does to a large extent.
Think of the very concept of the "born again". It's not that far away.
If I hear one more "born again" brazenly brag about what a wild child they used to be I'm gonna puke.
I think many of the are born again. Still a dick. But now a dick for Jesus. And now in their mind it's ok to be a dick.
Because everyone's a dick. Dick dick dick dick.
Freaking dick.
This is why the televangelists that "get caught" doing one thing or another just get endless passes.
Because to the Christian mind everybody lies. They really believe it. But if your Jesus' dick it's ok.
A flock of dicks.




[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like BikerDude's post
08-09-2017, 11:25 AM
RE: We are all sinners?
(08-09-2017 10:53 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here -- even though the whole Christian narrative of Adam & Eve and original sin and "we're all sinners" is obvious bullshit, there is a symbolic core of truth there.

1. We all have tendencies or temptations to do things that ultimately cause harm to ourselves or others, even though they seem pleasurable at the time. None of us is as "good" as he/she would like to be. I know I'm not, at least.

Yeah, it's not so much the idea that everybody falls short of perfection, it's the idea that you need forgiveness from the god rather than from whoever you injured. If I screw up and hurt somebody else it does no good to just sit in my room and talk to an imaginary friend; I need to fix things.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-09-2017, 11:27 AM
RE: We are all sinners?
[Image: Thousands-of-birds-flock-together-to-cre....jpg?49758]

[Image: maxresdefault.jpg]

[Image: anigif_enhanced-26851-1450298712-2.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-09-2017, 11:31 AM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2017 11:43 AM by Grasshopper.)
RE: We are all sinners?
(08-09-2017 11:13 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Think of the very concept of the "born again". It's not that far away.
If I hear one more "born again" brazenly brag about what a wild child they used to be I'm gonna puke.
I think many of the are born again. Still a dick. But now a dick for Jesus. And now in their mind it's ok to be a dick.

No argument there. I always liked the comedian (was it Gallagher?) who responded to "born again" claims with "Well, excuse the fuck out of me for getting it right the first time!"

Laugh out load

ETA: Internet tells me it was Dennis Miller.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: