We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
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14-08-2012, 10:25 PM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2012 10:51 PM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
Pretending we have souls, can the soul be altered throughout your life? People often use soul as a synonym for personality, "he has a kind soul" or "good-spirited." So what if an otherwise loving person is traumatically scarred through rape or war and becomes an emotionless shell or filled with hatred? Is your new tainted soul the one that has to exist eternally in heaven? Or are souls independent of our emotions and personalities? Do we just float around with no feelings in magic cloud city?

Do babies have souls that are similarly not matured. When a baby dies, does it have a baby soul, only capable of thinking "goo goo, ga ga?"

Puff... puff... twinkies.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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14-08-2012, 10:36 PM
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
(13-08-2012 07:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  I have never been as aware of being steered by neural impulses as in the present.

It's this grieving thing since my husband died. It's been over half a year now and still I am subject to reactions that are totally out of control by the rational mind.

I understand how it works. Most times that is enough to take control of things. But not with this.

For instance, I grieve when good things happen. Like, the plum tree is bearing for the first time and the plums are damn good. Does it make me happy? It makes me cry. I notice the lush plums, my mind instantly flashes on the last conversation I had with my husband about it, and that makes me cry.

So I went outside feeling fine, I see something nice, it makes me cry. It's all brain chemistry triggered by an impulse to tell hubby about it. I am still living the same life I was before I saw the plums, nothing changed except that something pleasurable occurred and my brain went the usual route - tell him about it - and he is not there anymore.

My brain does this constantly, any event that used to result in interaction with my husband triggers tears. This wears off after x number of exposures, depending on what it is. That plum will never bear for the first time again, so my brain is done with crying about it. It took a lot longer to get used to putting out just one fork and knife at dinner time - the impulse to grab two of each was ingrained for 26 years, every night, and it took time to stop the brain from going down that path.

So yes, there are layers of consciousness, and conditioning is very much influencing the way you feel. Like it or not (and I don't) you are driven by parts of your brain that you cannot control.

That's sad and beautiful at the same time Heart

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14-08-2012, 11:18 PM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2012 11:22 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
(13-08-2012 07:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-08-2012 04:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'd go further and call it logically untenable.


Well, that depends on how you define "soul" doesn't it. A hodgepodge of semi-dependent modules inventing a pilot to resolve their differences and steer the ship despite any internal disputes feels consistent with evolution to me.

I absolutely agree, but that's not what most people mean by "the soul".

So. What's next?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
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15-08-2012, 04:35 AM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2012 04:42 AM by Luminon.)
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
(14-08-2012 10:25 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Pretending we have souls, can the soul be altered throughout your life? People often use soul as a synonym for personality, "he has a kind soul" or "good-spirited." So what if an otherwise loving person is traumatically scarred through rape or war and becomes an emotionless shell or filled with hatred? Is your new tainted soul the one that has to exist eternally in heaven? Or are souls independent of our emotions and personalities? Do we just float around with no feelings in magic cloud city?

Do babies have souls that are similarly not matured. When a baby dies, does it have a baby soul, only capable of thinking "goo goo, ga ga?"

Puff... puff... twinkies.
The Theosophic model addresses such questions well enough, although observing and testing it that's another matter, that's something we can for now only do over the course of our lives.
From that point of view, we all have souls, but only few people use them or are in sporadic contact with them, even fewer consciously. They're said to be rather external higher entities that use their own people as instruments to explore and act in the solid world. Which doesn't work for the most part, until one day the person starts being interested in something higher beyond materialistic kinds of fun. (which may involve a great life crisis) Then there is an increasing rate of cooperation, communication and exerting influence on one's life. This may result in some anomalous experiences and typical life attitudes which I seek to observe in myself and others.

Less or more said, the set of vehicles and functions that make together the personality may be damaged, scarred, underdeveloped and so on. But it can also be grown and carefully developed over the course of incarnations that it will increasingly let through the light and influence of the soul. Such people are then often described as "good spirited" or "kind souls", although this is just a beginning. The relationship between a soul and a developing personality is diffcult and often full of conflicts and power struggles, leading even to misuse of soul potential by a selfish personality that temporarily takes over. OTOH, an active outwardly materially oriented personality is later often a better instrument for the soul than someone introspectively spiritual.
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15-08-2012, 07:21 AM
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
(15-08-2012 04:35 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(14-08-2012 10:25 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Pretending we have souls, can the soul be altered throughout your life? People often use soul as a synonym for personality, "he has a kind soul" or "good-spirited." So what if an otherwise loving person is traumatically scarred through rape or war and becomes an emotionless shell or filled with hatred? Is your new tainted soul the one that has to exist eternally in heaven? Or are souls independent of our emotions and personalities? Do we just float around with no feelings in magic cloud city?

Do babies have souls that are similarly not matured. When a baby dies, does it have a baby soul, only capable of thinking "goo goo, ga ga?"

Puff... puff... twinkies.
The Theosophic model addresses such questions well enough, although observing and testing it that's another matter, that's something we can for now only do over the course of our lives.
From that point of view, we all have souls, but only few people use them or are in sporadic contact with them, even fewer consciously. They're said to be rather external higher entities that use their own people as instruments to explore and act in the solid world. Which doesn't work for the most part, until one day the person starts being interested in something higher beyond materialistic kinds of fun. (which may involve a great life crisis) Then there is an increasing rate of cooperation, communication and exerting influence on one's life. This may result in some anomalous experiences and typical life attitudes which I seek to observe in myself and others.

Less or more said, the set of vehicles and functions that make together the personality may be damaged, scarred, underdeveloped and so on. But it can also be grown and carefully developed over the course of incarnations that it will increasingly let through the light and influence of the soul. Such people are then often described as "good spirited" or "kind souls", although this is just a beginning. The relationship between a soul and a developing personality is diffcult and often full of conflicts and power struggles, leading even to misuse of soul potential by a selfish personality that temporarily takes over. OTOH, an active outwardly materially oriented personality is later often a better instrument for the soul than someone introspectively spiritual.

Just to clarify, that would be the untestable, unverifiable Theosophic model?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-08-2012, 05:40 PM
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
(15-08-2012 07:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  Just to clarify, that would be the untestable, unverifiable Theosophic model?
We never know, until we try. I've tried and it worked. Of course it took some years, meditation and probably also a naturally introspective personality. As for technologic evidence, there is currently some only for the lowest part of the Theosophic model, the etheric sub-levels of matter. And something tells me this is not enough for you. Huh

At this point it would be good to ask if there are any studies on mystical experiences. Specially mystical experiences that involve sobriety, full consciousness and NDE-like feelings, except without visual part and religious symbols. Damn, for whole weeks I had a mystical experience like the first thing in the morning and then over the whole day. Do you happen to know if someone already researched such a phenomenon?
In fact, I just wrote a message to the writer who described a similar thing in his book. Maybe, maybe he'll reply some day and point me towards his sources. That's the most I can do at the moment.
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15-08-2012, 06:18 PM
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
Lumi, ya read too much sci-fi. Tongue

Flatland is a deception. A triangle defines a plane, three points for two dimensions; but what everybody seems to forget is that such is a two-dimensional surface with zero-dimensional thickness. The crucial fourth point not only defines a volume of infinite planes along the orthogonal, but an entire volume of infinite planes skewed from the perpendicular.

Which makes time the only relevant dimension, and us complete unto ourselves. To contemplate the potential of being a mere projection from some theoretical higher dimension is to open the floodgates of transcendental infinities, which is dysfunctional insanity.

Anything else is conformation bias. And there is no need to seek grandeur beyond the now; any conception of which would be orthogonal to the archetype of greatness. Occam ftw.

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16-08-2012, 02:05 AM
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
(15-08-2012 06:18 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Lumi, ya read too much sci-fi. Tongue

Flatland is a deception. A triangle defines a plane, three points for two dimensions; but what everybody seems to forget is that such is a two-dimensional surface with zero-dimensional thickness. The crucial fourth point not only defines a volume of infinite planes along the orthogonal, but an entire volume of infinite planes skewed from the perpendicular.

Which makes time the only relevant dimension, and us complete unto ourselves. To contemplate the potential of being a mere projection from some theoretical higher dimension is to open the floodgates of transcendental infinities, which is dysfunctional insanity.
Not really, if done in a right way. String theory did it and so far its number of dimensions isn't infinite. Most of world's mystical traditions can agree that besides space-time there's seven or so knowable material dimensions, which are seven basic states that a material particle can assume, with seven qualitative sub-levels of each state. Maybe the dimensions are infinitesimally tiny, but that's not a problem as long as they are property of basic particles, that should theoretically contain strings.

The interesting mystery is the method of interaction between dimensions. It is reasonable to assume that qualitatively adjacent particles may interact, albeit weakly. Therefore, I support the theory that dark matter consists of weakly interacting massive particles.
I am convinced that WIMPs can form atoms and material objects. The more organized (or concentrated) they are, the more they interact (be measurable), specially in living organisms and complex nervous systems. This is however still a physiologic thing, not a soul. Maybe a first step towards it.

(15-08-2012 06:18 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Anything else is conformation bias. And there is no need to seek grandeur beyond the now; any conception of which would be orthogonal to the archetype of greatness. Occam ftw.
I don't seek grandeur, the grandeur seeks out me. I guess it wants some audience. Who am I to argue with daily experience? Maybe I'm hard-wired to it, in which case I'm interested in scientific studies of perception.
I don't like when people make flaws in logic and I can argue like a skeptic, but during all that time I feel my chakras and energies and use them.
What's wrong with that? Well, it teaches me how precious is the scientific method and our ability to test things. How many phenomena slip between our fingers just because our technology isn't up to the task yet and we don't know what exactly to look for. Or if we ignore the fringe science that already made some progress in this direction, just because it isn't popular.

And yes, I don't deny I read too much sci-fi. Most of it however isn't as grand as the Theosophic model Smile
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16-08-2012, 06:22 AM
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
(16-08-2012 02:05 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Not really, if done in a right way. String theory did it and so far its number of dimensions isn't infinite. Most of world's mystical traditions can agree that besides space-time there's seven or so knowable material dimensions, which are seven basic states that a material particle can assume, with seven qualitative sub-levels of each state. Maybe the dimensions are infinitesimally tiny, but that's not a problem as long as they are property of basic particles, that should theoretically contain strings.

A physicist would say "That's not even wrong." String theory hasn't actually shown anything, it's still a speculative model being formed.

Quote:The interesting mystery is the method of interaction between dimensions. It is reasonable to assume that qualitatively adjacent particles may interact, albeit weakly. Therefore, I support the theory that dark matter consists of weakly interacting massive particles.
I am convinced that WIMPs can form atoms and material objects. The more organized (or concentrated) they are, the more they interact (be measurable), specially in living organisms and complex nervous systems. This is however still a physiologic thing, not a soul. Maybe a first step towards it.

Between what dimensions? What are "qualitatively adjacent particles"?

Quote:I don't seek grandeur, the grandeur seeks out me. I guess it wants some audience. Who am I to argue with daily experience? Maybe I'm hard-wired to it, in which case I'm interested in scientific studies of perception.

I think studying perception is likely to be more fruitful for you. You currently only have your perceptions and mental states as evidence; you have no objective evidence of the existence of any of the phenomena you speak of.

Quote:I don't like when people make flaws in logic and I can argue like a skeptic, but during all that time I feel my chakras and energies and use them.
What's wrong with that? Well, it teaches me how precious is the scientific method and our ability to test things. How many phenomena slip between our fingers just because our technology isn't up to the task yet and we don't know what exactly to look for. Or if we ignore the fringe science that already made some progress in this direction, just because it isn't popular.

And yes, I don't deny I read too much sci-fi. Most of it however isn't as grand as the Theosophic model Smile

What progress that fringe science has made are you referring to?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-08-2012, 08:22 AM
RE: We are slaves to our minds. Nature of the soul.
String theory prolly never was a theory... http://blog.vixra.org/2012/08/13/susy-2012/... the latest data indicates SUSY is "still hiding."

And I'm with Chas - what is a "qualitatively adjacent particle?"

And as for "magic number 7," no. Tongue

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