We atheists just have to accept the fact that...
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01-06-2011, 12:11 PM
RE: We atheists just have to accept the fact that...
I feel the same way but I hold out hope that out of everybody I have a chance to speak with there is at least one person who feels the same way I did growing up. That has doubts but does not know what to do with them. If I come across 9 people who dismiss my statements without processing what I have to say and one who truly listens....then my job is done.

Its the same reason I put the bumper stickers on my car. For most they will look at them and just move on. If I can find one person who realizes there is another person out there who feels the same way they did then I did my job.
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01-06-2011, 12:40 PM
 
RE: We atheists just have to accept the fact that...
(31-05-2011 11:21 PM)Spectre Wrote:  I haven't seen very many Creationists using those arguments. You must just be getting lucky. If you only see those arguments then you haven't dealt with a Creationist that is informed on both Creation and Naturalism.

What arguments have YOU heard, then? It would be interesting to see how they differ from the others.
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01-06-2011, 11:05 PM
RE: We atheists just have to accept the fact that...
(01-06-2011 06:03 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Getting lucky? You do realize that we're talking about laymen who enjoy discussing topics they only slightly skim over right? A large portion of christians don't read the bible they just follow the preacher. If the preacher preaches creationism they don't look at the evidence they follow the preacher. Many who are out there don't know anything about this stuff they just know what their preacher told them. The reason atheists in most cases seem more informed is that most of us had to attain knowledge of many things to escape the stranglehold religion has in our areas. The general public doesn't really care they just live their life and let their preacher deal with all of this.
I agree, I have seen some posts in the years that I have been debating this topic that have made me shake my head on both sides. But I would like to know where BuddyChrist is hanging out at where he keeps running into people who are using those arguments.
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(01-06-2011 06:03 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  This is a forum for concerned atheists, there are plenty of very uninformed people who do not believe in a god as well, but they generally don't try to debate people and change their minds on it.
Oh no, you are incorrect. There are just as many uninformed atheists out there trying to debate this topic as there are uninformed Creationists. The types of atheist I run into the most are the ones that do not understand Creationism, period and use a number of logical fallacies such as equivocation and ad hoc arguments, or my favorite, affirming the consequent/disjunct.(They are generally at least proficient in the model for naturalism/darwinism).

As for Creationists, a lot of them use the wrong approach and don't realize that evolution has different semantics, but the one that is used most often is a change in allele frequencies. They tend to use evolution to lump together the big bang, abiogenesis, and evolution, which will inevitably lead to an argument of semantics and will ultimately be a waste of time for both sides. I have also noticed that Creationists do not seem to care nearly as much about this debate as you all do. The reason why is probably because of their faith in The Bible and that they probably don't really care what others think. I have seen atheists that live to debate Creationists, it is an amazing phenomenon. As for me, I typically only engage an atheist when my Creationist friends call me for help or when I see an atheist that just has a horrible understanding of either the Creation or Evolution model.

I have read many of the articles in talkorigins and I lurk in the richard dawkins forums. The only reason I am here is because I have productive discussions with members of this forum in the past and it is nice to keep up with what is going on in the world of atheism. Smile


(01-06-2011 12:40 PM)jafowler Wrote:  What arguments have YOU heard, then? It would be interesting to see how they differ from the others.
What arguments do I use or what arguments am I seeing others use? The way I approach these debates is rather complicated to explain.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

http://www.answersforhope.org
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02-06-2011, 04:14 AM
RE: We atheists just have to accept the fact that...
(01-06-2011 11:05 PM)Spectre Wrote:  The way I approach these debates is rather complicated to explain.


...Like, this kind of complicated?

[Image: life_getting_complicated.jpg]

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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02-06-2011, 06:18 AM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2011 06:36 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: We atheists just have to accept the fact that...
By more informed atheist debaters I mean that generally an atheist who debates at least has a good concept of their own argument. The reason that this has been such a big deal more recently is the fact that creationism has no definite natural proof, yet people are trying to push it as a school subject. Evolution is seen as a science because it's constantly being tested, and it's gained it's ground as a theory because despite very simple ways of disproving it through the evidence when things are studied and looked at it continues to be very accurate (not perfect, perfect is not a natural state it's an ideal). The main fear is that children of non-christian backgrounds are being forced through schooling to listen to a very christianity based argument.

Have you seen videos of evangelical camps like the Jesus camp video or ones about treating homosexuality in children? These are things that people outside of the religion find abhorrent, and they see the ground being gained by religious radicals, not moderates. Moderates favor the radicals in many cases in politics due to their strong religious conviction. They may not really agree with the ideas, but the religious lean is often a convincing factor for a vote or support through money.

Atheists are also often on the defensive. Where I live is almost completely baptist, I as a child grew up around religion wanting to be able to accept it and knowing I couldn't. One reason for our occasional militance is the fact that we are a minority who generally feels oppressed by the constant barrage of religious talk. Often an atheist will not get into a debate with a creationist until they hear a claim. Most of us do not walk up to people and ask if they believe in evolution or creationism. Evolution isn't even an atheistic dogma, it's just something that most of us have felt should be defended from being lowered to something less than a very well documented and structured view.

I'm admittedly not all that aware of the serious findings of creationists, but I'm not particularly a debater in these realms I just was discussing that plant life which came before most others is often hermaphroditic, and that this suggests the hermaphrodite came before the female. I did not come to the conclusion that humans are animals due to Darwin, I came to that conclusion from personal observations. I will discuss evolution though as from all that I know of it, it's a very logical answer which gives us a lot of certainty on a topic. Provable certainty, not just I have strong convictions. Evolution is supported because they have documented evidence of it in the world. The idea of a creator and furthermore religions are based off of much less supported claims. I say this because all the evidence I've seen has had no real viability as proof.

For me also atheism is not that something didn't create us, it's that there's no personal caring god and I would not call whatever started things a god. God for me is a term of worship, this status is given to something that you will pray to and seek to appease. I do not feel a need to praise something simply for being responsible for my birth, so deism which is quite separate from theism is not really where I argue. Though for me deism is just allowing for a creator of some sort and not really giving it any credence or worth. I have strong convictions (due to adversity) that I will not run into a higher being worthy of praise and worship for my existence. I wouldn't care much at all if religion wasn't constantly pushed and popularized. Media, politics, everything is religion. It's hard not to have issues when you really don't agree.

If we're going to discuss something I would like to discuss your views on queer theory first, we can private message if you like. I'm a trans-activist so I always seek to inform people about transgenderism before much else. Knowledge of who we are alone can often stop a litany of bullying and pressure issues those who don't really understand commit.

Atheism is the same way currently as people are finally trying to remove the stigma, but it's not yet my big fight.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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03-06-2011, 11:23 PM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2011 11:32 PM by Spectre.)
RE: We atheists just have to accept the fact that...
(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  By more informed atheist debaters I mean that generally an atheist who debates at least has a good concept of their own argument.
In some cases yes, but I wouldn't say most. Unless I am really unlucky or they are just trolling. Most of the people I debate are from facebook, if you want to know where I am getting my ideas on atheist evangelism from.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  The reason that this has been such a big deal more recently is the fact that creationism has no definite natural proof, yet people are trying to push it as a school subject.
I disagree,there is evidence of Creationism(You only get proof in mathematics and logic, some philosophers argued that even those proofs are presupposed. I would like to add that while there is a scientific branch in Creationism, it is still a religion.) Yes, people do push Creationism as a school subject, and they really shouldn't. I mean, what kind of Creationism would we teach? If we teach one kind other Christians will be unhappy anyways. Religion is just best left out of schools. If someone wants to teach Creationism they should start their own school or apply to teach at a Christian school.


(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Evolution is seen as a science because it's constantly being tested, and it's gained it's ground as a theory because despite very simple ways of disproving it through the evidence when things are studied and looked at it continues to be very accurate (not perfect, perfect is not a natural state it's an ideal). The main fear is that children of non-christian backgrounds are being forced through schooling to listen to a very christianity based argument.
Which semantic of evolution are you using? There are several. Also, once you choose a semantic I ask that you stick with it. I have a lot of atheists that equivocate the meaning of evolution throughout the debate.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Have you seen videos of evangelical camps like the Jesus camp video or ones about treating homosexuality in children? These are things that people outside of the religion find abhorrent, and they see the ground being gained by religious radicals, not moderates. Moderates favor the radicals in many cases in politics due to their strong religious conviction. They may not really agree with the ideas, but the religious lean is often a convincing factor for a vote or support through money.
I don't base a group of people whether it be Christians, atheists, muslims, etc based off the actions of a few. If I did, then I guess I would have a reason to hate everyone. Tongue

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Atheists are also often on the defensive. Where I live is almost completely baptist, I as a child grew up around religion wanting to be able to accept it and knowing I couldn't.
I'm not so sure, I see a bunch of atheists always trolling Christian and Creationist pages on facebook. I happen to admin several of them so I see it first hand. I never really find any Christians venturing into atheists facebook pages. I am the only one who does so, and I only do it to learn more about how atheists think, and that is one of the other reasons I'm here. The community here seems to be pretty reasonable with people with opposing viewpoints so far.



(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  One reason for our occasional militance is the fact that we are a minority who generally feels oppressed by the constant barrage of religious talk. Often an atheist will not get into a debate with a creationist until they hear a claim. Most of us do not walk up to people and ask if they believe in evolution or creationism. Evolution isn't even an atheistic dogma, it's just something that most of us have felt should be defended from being lowered to something less than a very well documented and structured view.
I wouldn't call it occasional, I see it everywhere. I've had atheists private message me on facebook just to challenge me to a debate or outright harass me. Including one local girl from my city. I have no idea how they found out who I am, or why they were so interested in bothering me. But many of the atheist I run into are far more aggressive than the Christians that I meet. Not to say that there are not Christians who go overboard, of course. But in nearly ever debate I get in, I am not the one who starts it.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I'm admittedly not all that aware of the serious findings of creationists, but I'm not particularly a debater in these realms I just was discussing that plant life which came before most others is often hermaphroditic, and that this suggests the hermaphrodite came before the female.
Most of the time debating this subject is a waste of time. The reason why is because almost every creation/evolution debate I have seen or been in becomes an argument of semantics, and there is just no substance in those sorts of debates. The only way you are going to get a good discussion is to discuss the subject with someone who is knowledgeable on the topic. I don't expect anyone to fully try to keep up with advancements in the Creationist circle, but since I do debate this topic on a regular basis I try to keep up with secular science findings as well. Funnily enough, you can learn a lot from studying the opposing side.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I did not come to the conclusion that humans are animals due to Darwin, I came to that conclusion from personal observations. I will discuss evolution though as from all that I know of it, it's a very logical answer which gives us a lot of certainty on a topic. Provable certainty, not just I have strong convictions. Evolution is supported because they have documented evidence of it in the world. The idea of a creator and furthermore religions are based off of much less supported claims. I say this because all the evidence I've seen has had no real viability as proof.
In order to address this point, I will have to ask again which semantic of evolution you are using.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  For me also atheism is not that something didn't create us, it's that there's no personal caring god and I would not call whatever started things a god.
I find that arguing atheism as a religion is a waste of time and is nothing more than an argument of semantics.


(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  God for me is a term of worship, this status is given to something that you will pray to and seek to appease. I do not feel a need to praise something simply for being responsible for my birth, so deism which is quite separate from theism is not really where I argue. Though for me deism is just allowing for a creator of some sort and not really giving it any credence or worth. I have strong convictions (due to adversity) that I will not run into a higher being worthy of praise and worship for my existence. I wouldn't care much at all if religion wasn't constantly pushed and popularized. Media, politics, everything is religion. It's hard not to have issues when you really don't agree.
New atheists have really been pushing their beliefs on others as well, do you support that movement?

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  If we're going to discuss something I would like to discuss your views on queer theory first, we can private message if you like. I'm a trans-activist so I always seek to inform people about transgenderism before much else. Knowledge of who we are alone can often stop a litany of bullying and pressure issues those who don't really understand commit.
If you want to shoot me a pm I will be happy to discuss it with you. I will probably not be here on a regular basis though because I do have a fairly busy life and also admin a bunch of sites. As for a summary of what I believe on this subject, it is not the job of Christians to make personal decisions for other people. In Genesis God gave man a choice, why should we try to take away the power of choice from other humans? People's personal decisions are none of our business so long as they are not harming anyone else.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Atheism is the same way currently as people are finally trying to remove the stigma, but it's not yet my big fight.
I may need some clarification on this statement.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

http://www.answersforhope.org
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04-06-2011, 01:44 AM
RE: We atheists just have to accept the fact that...
AWWWWW SNAP. Spectre came back! We heard that you were all banned by your admin from coming here, lest your mind be tainted.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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04-06-2011, 07:43 AM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2011 07:49 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: We atheists just have to accept the fact that...
(03-06-2011 11:23 PM)Spectre Wrote:  In some cases yes, but I wouldn't say most. Unless I am really unlucky or they are just trolling. Most of the people I debate are from facebook, if you want to know where I am getting my ideas on atheist evangelism from.
I agree there is no question that we have our trolls and elitists.

I disagree,there is evidence of Creationism(You only get proof in mathematics and logic, some philosophers argued that even those proofs are presupposed. I would like to add that while there is a scientific branch in Creationism, it is still a religion.) Yes, people do push Creationism as a school subject, and they really shouldn't. I mean, what kind of Creationism would we teach? If we teach one kind other Christians will be unhappy anyways. Religion is just best left out of schools. If someone wants to teach Creationism they should start their own school or apply to teach at a Christian school.
I believe that the philosophical value of things can be left out as far as proofs. I've never had an issue seeing a scientific law as possibly being completely wrong, but it's generally a very trustworthy deduction. The philosophy of never truly knowing belays the fact of being able to see very strong evidence towards a particular answer. And we are in agreement of the basic reason this topic is often discussed, which allows it to be the same type of hot topic as abortion rights. If it weren't for the public school push then this subject would go pretty unnoticed.

Which semantic of evolution are you using? There are several. Also, once you choose a semantic I ask that you stick with it. I have a lot of atheists that equivocate the meaning of evolution throughout the debate.
In that case I wasn't using a semantic, evolution as the fact that over time species vary in their genes and can change. Also the genome evidence of ancestral trees. These things are agreed upon by most scientists. The debate in this subject is more about natural selection than evolution itself. The basic fact being proven by the largely agreeing evidence animal to animal. A creationist who is discussing the supernatural force responsible for DNA is not in disagreement with this. Though creationists who only accept small scale evolution denying that it would increase over vast amounts of time are in denial (micro vs macro). The philosophical (that's generally where religious arguments fall due to the non-objectivity of supernatural) question of whether a genetic mutation gains favor due to better use of it's body is one that is in debate between those that feel something besides death and birth are at hand.

I don't base a group of people whether it be Christians, atheists, muslims, etc based off the actions of a few. If I did, then I guess I would have a reason to hate everyone. Tongue
It's that this creates a reason to disapprove of things going too far. Enough of the people on this forum have run into these types of things. Just like prior to TTA I had stopped even thinking online because everywhere I went the comments were so vacuous. Most even anti religious people are not attacking people for having beliefs, they are attacking the structure imposed. We aren't all Hitchens. I don't demand everyone change their views, but I sometimes get worried as their views might be very problematic. Where I live things are very focused, and that gives me reason to feel pressured.

I'm not so sure, I see a bunch of atheists always trolling Christian and Creationist pages on facebook. I happen to admin several of them so I see it first hand. I never really find any Christians venturing into atheists facebook pages. I am the only one who does so, and I only do it to learn more about how atheists think, and that is one of the other reasons I'm here. The community here seems to be pretty reasonable with people with opposing viewpoints so far.
Yes there are people who go to argue in places where their view is dissenting. We have plenty of discussions on here of people going to sites and giving evidence which tends to get them banned. Not even the trolls. Facebook is a strong religious tool because most people are religious and there will be a huge amount of posts invoking god. It can create a real schism as people want a way to counter the barrage of messages. Yes atheists troll heavily, I'm generally accepting though occasionally I'll be in too militant of a mood to accept things. I don't try to make my lack of religion a big issue in my life, but it becomes so because so many people make religion their focus in life. If I was only looking at facebook I would not be calling myself an Atheist =p this site is what made me decide to go ahead and assume the label.


I wouldn't call it occasional, I see it everywhere. I've had atheists private message me on facebook just to challenge me to a debate or outright harass me. Including one local girl from my city. I have no idea how they found out who I am, or why they were so interested in bothering me. But many of the atheist I run into are far more aggressive than the Christians that I meet. Not to say that there are not Christians who go overboard, of course. But in nearly ever debate I get in, I am not the one who starts it.
I have the same issue with christians who are very concerned to change me, proselytism works heavily in both sides. (though the hope is atheists can stop doing it since we have no edict) The reason you notice the other side of this less is because you have a religious belief and are not being given the same cynical devaluation by christians. There is an enormous amount of tension on both sides, so it's hard to really discuss the middle ground. I only start a debate if someone says something I can't leave. Sometimes people make comments you just have to fight.

Most of the time debating this subject is a waste of time. The reason why is because almost every creation/evolution debate I have seen or been in becomes an argument of semantics, and there is just no substance in those sorts of debates. The only way you are going to get a good discussion is to discuss the subject with someone who is knowledgeable on the topic. I don't expect anyone to fully try to keep up with advancements in the Creationist circle, but since I do debate this topic on a regular basis I try to keep up with secular science findings as well. Funnily enough, you can learn a lot from studying the opposing side.
That is always true and there are people against creationism who do study it more fully. It is also fine to have a discussion in this nature where either a point is raised in one side or information is gathered. I am never afraid to share information and take in information. I will often enough look to suggested books, because I'm discussing something from the empirical not the emotional (outside of sometimes aggravation). Plenty of theists are willing to look at things empirically as well, secularism is not a wholly non-religious thing. The problem we both see in our own experiences on this issue is that the uninformed are generally the loudest.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I did not come to the conclusion that humans are animals due to Darwin, I came to that conclusion from personal observations. I will discuss evolution though as from all that I know of it, it's a very logical answer which gives us a lot of certainty on a topic. Provable certainty, not just I have strong convictions. Evolution is supported because they have documented evidence of it in the world. The idea of a creator and furthermore religions are based off of much less supported claims. I say this because all the evidence I've seen has had no real viability as proof.
In order to address this point, I will have to ask again which semantic of evolution you are using.
in this case I am discussing natural selection in a small way, simply stating that I didn't read a specific book to come up with the view that everything is connected. I see natural selection as obvious because it is a mechanical process that can be easily defied yet has only in very small occasions been defied. Generally the view by natural selection is supported by the observable answer. That does not mean that there is no unobservable portion, but I choose not to discuss the unobservable in general conversation because both people discussing something they currently see no hope in fully comprehending can get really awkward. I will discuss it when asked to in a respectful manner, but to me most debates are best left to things that are less about personal feelings as I know I'm not right on everything I "feel". I was discussing a personal feeling as the fact that for me the Darwinian concepts agree with my view of the case before it ever being discussed with me.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  For me also atheism is not that something didn't create us, it's that there's no personal caring god and I would not call whatever started things a god.
I find that arguing atheism as a religion is a waste of time and is nothing more than an argument of semantics.
I was simply defining for you my view in the topic so that you would know it. Yes whether atheism is a religion or an absence is only a question of semantics. I was not arguing this point so I suppose this is you suggesting one of your views to me as well.

New atheists have really been pushing their beliefs on others as well, do you support that movement?
I am in support of pushing critical thinking as it;s an important skill to have for everyone. I sometimes make statements to the effect that pushing out theistic views is helpful, but I do not find enforcing your own personal beliefs in someone as helpful in any case within subjects that have so many unknown variables. There is nothing wrong with a history teacher (chose a random field) discussing history, but an issue arises if he begins discussing his own theories in too much detail forcing onto the students a personal bias. Until things are given strong support and highly agreed upon I don't see a reason to force it onto others. I do feel that challenging things that are established is never a bad thing, as if left unchallenged great atrocities might go on. So I'm not opposed to the fact that there are non-religious challenging religion though it is heavily agreed upon. I simply don't feel they should try as hard to push their own personal views onto others. I discuss how I see things with people so that they can understand me, and occasionally it alters the way they view things but only when they decide they want it to.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  If we're going to discuss something I would like to discuss your views on queer theory first, we can private message if you like. I'm a trans-activist so I always seek to inform people about transgenderism before much else. Knowledge of who we are alone can often stop a litany of bullying and pressure issues those who don't really understand commit.
If you want to shoot me a pm I will be happy to discuss it with you. I will probably not be here on a regular basis though because I do have a fairly busy life and also admin a bunch of sites. As for a summary of what I believe on this subject, it is not the job of Christians to make personal decisions for other people. In Genesis God gave man a choice, why should we try to take away the power of choice from other humans? People's personal decisions are none of our business so long as they are not harming anyone else.

(02-06-2011 06:18 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Atheism is the same way currently as people are finally trying to remove the stigma, but it's not yet my big fight.
I may need some clarification on this statement.
As those from Abrahamic religions tend to view queer culture in a bad light they also view atheism in the same. With a complete lack of knowledge there are many presuppositions they make and often times in my experiences claim. I think that it's wonderful we have more reasonable atheists who are trying to spread the knowledge that we are more than simply an inverse to them and let them know we're people too. It's not my fight to spread an acceptance of atheism though. I'm more focused on the needs of the trans.

I'm not really here that often either anymore as I don't have much time free due to work.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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