We can't judge god by our standards.
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29-11-2013, 09:58 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 07:00 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 06:18 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Making a judgment about anything is the ability to assess it's qualities, to observe it's attributes.
If I can't assess god's attributes then I cannot know anything about the being.
Therefore the being has a value of zero. No morals, no power, no knowledge, no existence.

You are a font of invalid arguments.

I started writing a detailed refutation of the crap you posted but I deleted it. If you think that this garbage and the other garbage your posted earlier is a valid argument then there is just no point. You and Julius are both morons that I won't waste my time with. Village atheism at its best. Some patients are so ill there is no point giving them medical attention. Being so ignorant and unintelligent is sufficient punishment for you. I am happy to leave you as is.

Three lines of text is too much for you. I understand. Sometimes the simplest of things can disturb the simplest of minds.

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29-11-2013, 10:12 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 08:39 AM)Chippy Wrote:  You should be aware of your own metaphysical baggage and not just assume that your ideas about what is good, right and just are shared by everyone. Your disposition towards Yahweh springs from the liberal-humanistic ideas you have inherited from your culture. They aren't human universals. Wahabist Muslims and Orthodox Jews also reject these liberal-humanistic values. If someone doesn't share your conception of morality then there is no point in appealing to it. Orthodox Jews don't believe in liberal feminism or any other ideology that has its roots in the Enlightenment so there is no point in appealing to any such ideology. As far as Orthodox Jews are concerned the role of women was clearly stated by Yahweh and is recorded in the Torah and elucidated in the Talmud. You can argue that Enlightenment values are superior, that liberal feminism is superior, that liberal-humanist values are superior etc. but you can't just assume that and proceed to denounce Yahweh and his wacky ways.

As a former Reformed Christian I can relate to where you're coming from. However, you must agree that liberal values are superior. When you can have this conversation with skeptics and not call for their execution as Calvin did to Servetus, or drown them as some Lutheran and Reformed folk would do to the anabaptists. Why did these practices change? How do you justify the killing of the Amalekites but repudiate the bloody history of the early Reformed tradition?

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29-11-2013, 10:21 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 09:58 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Three lines of text is too much for you. I understand. Sometimes the simplest of things can disturb the simplest of minds.

Try to keep it on topic. kthxbye

(29-11-2013 09:37 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Therefore, that's all I ever knew. When my dad died, he left us with more money than I could ever spend in my lifetime. Yes. I'm filthy rich. I don't ever have to work. I don't know what it's like to not be able to pay my way, or pay my bills. I work because I chose to.

That's a peculiar whine. Tongue

Anyhoo, I was gonna add my particular brand of naive philosophy in my previous objection when Chippy intervened with the formal bits. There's a contrast between the culturally specific dictates of the prophets and their relayed conception of "god beyond understanding." Obviously he can't be too far beyond understanding if the prophets can legislate on his behalf.

What may be more effective is to deconstruct the contextual, temporal relevance of these speakers for god, and like the Chipster mentioned, it's a case-by-case situation.

Another reason why the "YHWH as prick" paradigm fails is that this directly attacks the identity of the theist, and that kind of action closes minds to discussion with the quickness. Like if we're gonna have a conversation, talking smack about my Gwynnies is a quick way to end it.

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29-11-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 09:24 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 08:36 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I live in a world where I am, quite literally, the only atheist. I live in a world where I am the focus of conversion attempts. I am tired of just walking away from these, ok?

So then start with the proselytization arguments. Unless the proselytization arguments was "You should become Christian because God is genocidal" I don't think it is a natural transition to start talking about how Yahweh is a prick. Work with what you are given.

PS:- Time to sleep. Keep asking questions if this is unclear and I'll endeavour to answer them tomorrow.

Ok. Night night, chipster.

I'm interested to know how you would deal with this type of conversation. Keeping in full mind that the person you are talking to has half the IQ points of you. You will have to dumb down the argument as I constantly have to.

Sandy: God is great! Isn't god great?!?
Me: if you say so.
Sandy: you don't think god is great?
Me: I don't think god is real. But even if I did think god was real, I really don't see the goodness in him.

Now - you would think this ends the convo but usually not.

Sandy: why isn't god good.
Me: other than the genocide of the OT, I just look around and don't see much point to the suffering.
Sandy: that's not for us to understand
Me: why not?
Sandy: we can't judge him on our standards. He transcends us.

Chippy - go.

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29-11-2013, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2013 10:50 AM by Rahn127.)
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 10:21 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 09:58 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Three lines of text is too much for you. I understand. Sometimes the simplest of things can disturb the simplest of minds.

Try to keep it on topic. kthxbye

It was very much on topic when the topic is about making judgments and the standards that we use. He was able to make a judgement about what I wrote because he was able to observe it. Simple minds, even as simple as some theists would claim that human minds are, still have the ability to be disturbed by what they observe. That disturbance is judgment. Even the simplest of minds among us can be disturbed by what we read in a book that others call holy.

We make determinations of good or bad, helpful or harmful based upon the evidence that we observe.

As atheists, we have yet to observe any evidence supporting the existence of a god.
To say that we cannot judge god based on our standards is to say that god is non-existent, because existence is our standard. Evidence is our standard.
And if someone says that god transcends existence, then they are admitting that god is non-existent.

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29-11-2013, 10:47 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 10:21 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 09:58 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Three lines of text is too much for you. I understand. Sometimes the simplest of things can disturb the simplest of minds.

Try to keep it on topic. kthxbye

(29-11-2013 09:37 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Therefore, that's all I ever knew. When my dad died, he left us with more money than I could ever spend in my lifetime. Yes. I'm filthy rich. I don't ever have to work. I don't know what it's like to not be able to pay my way, or pay my bills. I work because I chose to.

That's a peculiar whine. Tongue

Anyhoo, I was gonna add my particular brand of naive philosophy in my previous objection when Chippy intervened with the formal bits. There's a contrast between the culturally specific dictates of the prophets and their relayed conception of "god beyond understanding." Obviously he can't be too far beyond understanding if the prophets can legislate on his behalf.

What may be more effective is to deconstruct the contextual, temporal relevance of these speakers for god, and like the Chipster mentioned, it's a case-by-case situation.

Another reason why the "YHWH as prick" paradigm fails is that this directly attacks the identity of the theist, and that kind of action closes minds to discussion with the quickness. Like if we're gonna have a conversation, talking smack about my Gwynnies is a quick way to end it.

I agree, HoC. That's why I don't try to insult their diety. It's like insulting your mother, or your gwynnies. I don't want to hurt your feelings.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that Gweneth Paltrow...I dunno...did something tht hurt Apple. While I wouldn't say, she's a terrible *person*, I would address her behavior as being terrible, irresponsible and wrong. Irrespective of whatever justification you tried to lend on her behalf.

I want to be clear - while I may say something abrasive on here, it's because I'm safe to do so in this environment.

It's like finally getting a moment with a friend to finally lament about your boss. It's not gonna get back to your boss. On here, I may finally get a chance to say, "god is the biggest abortionist of all time." But I wouldn't say that to anyone's face. The internet is impersonal. Real life is not.

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29-11-2013, 10:47 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 10:43 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  As atheists, we have yet to observe any evidence supporting the existence of a god.
To say that we cannot judge god based on our standards is to say that god is non-existent, because existence is our standard. Evidence is our standard.

As to the first part, I do remember standing before the creator of the universe and accepting the title of prophet, so, there's that. Tongue

And on the second part, I agree with ya, but this is a flying monkey thread; and somehow having an outside/higher perspective, as the Chipster mentioned, is outside the context.

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29-11-2013, 10:51 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 10:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 10:43 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  As atheists, we have yet to observe any evidence supporting the existence of a god.
To say that we cannot judge god based on our standards is to say that god is non-existent, because existence is our standard. Evidence is our standard.

As to the first part, I do remember standing before the creator of the universe and accepting the title of prophet, so, there's that. Tongue

And on the second part, I agree with ya, but this is a flying monkey thread; and somehow having an outside/higher perspective, as the Chipster mentioned, is outside the context.
Flying monkey thread, I been hearing this all day. What is it? Flights of fancy?

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29-11-2013, 10:52 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 10:47 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 10:43 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  As atheists, we have yet to observe any evidence supporting the existence of a god.
To say that we cannot judge god based on our standards is to say that god is non-existent, because existence is our standard. Evidence is our standard.

As to the first part, I do remember standing before the creator of the universe and accepting the title of prophet, so, there's that. Tongue

And on the second part, I agree with ya, but this is a flying monkey thread; and somehow having an outside/higher perspective, as the Chipster mentioned, is outside the context.

Yo........... Flying Monkeys belong to MEEeeeeee

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29-11-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
I'm not whining about anything HoC. Please don't quote me out of context. My point was that I don't hang around academics like chippy because they are pretenious as blood hell!

I have an advanced degree - so technically I'm an academic - but I don't feel the need to rub anyone's nose in it.

Now - I've made my peace with chip. He is who he is. I am who I am. I don't need his approval, and he doesn't need mine. The point of that was to say that chip's way, although different from mine, isn't necessarily correct, or vice versa.

Chippy likes to tell me that my arguments are stupid, baseless, and irrelevant. That maybe so - but these are the arguments of the people I surround myself with. So let's deal with reality and not his ideals of how a conversation should go.

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