We can't judge god by our standards.
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06-12-2013, 08:04 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 07:46 PM)childeye Wrote:  Thanks for your post. Yes it matters what we are referring to when we use the term scripture, but purely for the sake of clarity. I am referring to what we call the bible as a whole, both Old and New Testament.

If that's your starting place then you're ignoring the whole of Matthew and chunks of Mark, Luke and John and handpicking pauline quotes here and there just like Marcion did.


Quote: I do not know of Marcion. But I would not be surprised he would be called a heretic by those who in their ignorance subvert the simple moral Truth for the sake of religion.

The witch hunting was a two way street, ultimately it's hard to know if marcion knew of the other gospels, if he didnt, honest mistake on his part, if he did, he just like you ignored them to support his opinion.

Quote:This in fact is why all the apostles were killed and persecuted for doing.

Another presupposition on your part. We don't know if that's actually what happened, this notion comes from biased references of the church 'fathers' most of which lived after the 2nd century. No historical grounds to make that assertion. We have no idea what really happened to them.

Quote:Preaching a spiritual Truth that is. Hence there exists a spiritual enemy to those who preach the Truth. For scripture says this enemy would hold captive the minds of men through lies.

another fallacy, the former assertion does not lead to your conclusion, sorry

brush up on your apologetics and come back with a better argument

good luck

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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06-12-2013, 08:20 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2013 08:46 PM by childeye.)
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 07:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 07:39 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  I'm conflicted about this thread. While it is filled with lots of useful information, I can't shake the feeling that it has not answered the OP's question or issue to her satisfaction.

Cathym112, how do you feel about how this thread has gone?

There a few gems in here. Sometime people have provided a better explanation than I had before, but I still don't understand why gods very human actions (emotions) are above judgment from those humans.

Also, I find it rather peculiar that people become really frustrated with me when i ask these questions. Consider They can't fathom why I would spend my time trying to relate/understand/make sense of what is nonsense. I can't respond well and find the faults of something I don't understand. Which is why I pick it up, examine it, and try to figure out whats wrong with it and if I can fix it before I simply just throw it away. Drinking Beverage
You do well in your honesty. It would be a hypocritical mind that would throw away something it does not understand. This response you give in your post already shows a perfectly logical reasoning that understands why some one cannot judge God, by assuming that God is all knowing and we are not. The only recourse for those who would berate you for your common sense, is to point out the pre-supposition that God is all knowing. However no one here will claim they know everything and cannot therefore say for certain that God is not all knowing. Otherwise they would be hypocrits, doing the very same thing by pre-supposing God is not all-knowing. This is why when it comes to the Godhead it will always be a matter of faith. For there is no higher seat.

But this issue is being lost in the semantics. Who says we cannot judge whether some emotions are good and some bad? We are meant to experience them both so as to know the difference. The bible says we will judge angels. The pride issue confounds the entire reasoning. It's not supposed to be personal. Otherwise vanity would rule again in heaven just as it did with Satan in power.
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06-12-2013, 08:32 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2013 08:37 PM by childeye.)
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 08:04 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 07:46 PM)childeye Wrote:  Thanks for your post. Yes it matters what we are referring to when we use the term scripture, but purely for the sake of clarity. I am referring to what we call the bible as a whole, both Old and New Testament.

If that's your starting place then you're ignoring the whole of Matthew and chunks of Mark, Luke and John and handpicking pauline quotes here and there just like Marcion did.


Quote: I do not know of Marcion. But I would not be surprised he would be called a heretic by those who in their ignorance subvert the simple moral Truth for the sake of religion.

The witch hunting was a two way street, ultimately it's hard to know if marcion knew of the other gospels, if he didnt, honest mistake on his part, if he did, he just like you ignored them to support his opinion.

Quote:This in fact is why all the apostles were killed and persecuted for doing.

Another presupposition on your part. We don't know if that's actually what happened, this notion comes from biased references of the church 'fathers' most of which lived after the 2nd century. No historical grounds to make that assertion. We have no idea what really happened to them.

Quote:Preaching a spiritual Truth that is. Hence there exists a spiritual enemy to those who preach the Truth. For scripture says this enemy would hold captive the minds of men through lies.

another fallacy, the former assertion does not lead to your conclusion, sorry

brush up on your apologetics and come back with a better argument

good luck
To make this simple, I would point out that I am simply asserting that Love rules as the goodness in mankind. All subsequent reasoning is based upon this premise that God is Love. I don't need scriptures nor marcion to assert it. When I state it as fact that the apostles were killed for speaking the Truth I am simply stating the bibles report. Whether this actually happened is not necessary to prove any more than I must prove that the inquisition happened. The fact remains that men who preach the Truth are persecuted by those who hold power through lies. Those who preach the Truth would never persecute anyone. Do you disagree?
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06-12-2013, 08:43 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 06:34 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 05:23 PM)Free Wrote:  We can't judge this god at all.

How do you judge something that does not exist?
Respectfully, you misinterpret the persons point. The point being "if" God exists.

Understood, however my point being ... shoot the argument down immediately by saying what I said. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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06-12-2013, 08:56 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 08:43 PM)Free Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 06:34 PM)childeye Wrote:  Respectfully, you misinterpret the persons point. The point being "if" God exists.

Understood, however my point being ... shoot the argument down immediately by saying what I said. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Understood. But then there would be no topic. Moreover, to speculate that God does not exist is futile particularly if one has no idea what a Godhead is. All morality would be subjective including the very meaning of the term "morality". Sanity would mean the same as insanity to the insane. Therefore there does exist politics and there are some things that are moral and immoral objectively speaking.
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06-12-2013, 09:04 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
I don't see why not. You have to wonder, why does god always say "us" and "our" and that other thing with the commandments “You shall have no other gods before me." Why other? Are there more gods? where exactly? Are they working together?

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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06-12-2013, 10:08 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 09:04 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
I don't see why not. You have to wonder, why does god always say "us" and "our" and that other thing with the commandments “You shall have no other gods before me." Why other? Are there more gods? where exactly? Are they working together?
In scripture, there is a Godhead, singular as in a political seat that is also referred to as the Most High. There is therefore a political body of god hence the plural. Most people believe this refers to the angelic order in heaven as described by Ezekials wheels within wheels.

The reason why man cannot eat of the tree of life is because corruption cannot be allowed in heaven. You are touching on an immense and all encompassing line of thought. Please note that the two flaming swords that guard the way and that turn every direction are symbolic and not unlike the two cheribum that sit on the ark of the covenant. They represent left and right, accuse and excuse, give and take. They are no different than that which happens in our own conscience. In short this means men must overcome their own hypocritical reasoning to have eternal life.

On the simplest level, if we think God is corrupt, we are corrupt. Our Maker being corrupt in our imagery consequently makes us corrupt in Whose image we are made. On the subconscious level we all maintain an image of god; that which defines our morality. If the image is corrupt, we consequently will reason hypocritically, wherein morally we draw lines for others to meet that we ourselves hypocritically won't meet. Hence the swords are our own judgment of ourselves.

The point of the Christ is that he who was pure became sin so that we may become the righteousness of God. How can this be possible? Because that is what the word Christ means. He is the True and pure image of God sent to men so as to believe and be saved. Because as sinners, only by being merciful can we receive mercy and our conscience be clean and right before God. So when God gives a covering for our nakedness, it is a metaphor for the life of Christ and his sacrifice that covers our sins wherein he says, "this is my blood that will be shed so that sins may be forgiven". This is all spiritual terminology. But ultimately it does clean the conscience when understood properly.
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06-12-2013, 10:15 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 08:56 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 08:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Understood, however my point being ... shoot the argument down immediately by saying what I said. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Understood. But then there would be no topic.

I dunno, but maybe I am just a hard-core atheist who prefers to go from Point "A" to Point "B" and end such an argument as quickly and efficiently as possible.

There is no god, ergo there is nothing to judge.

Quote: Moreover, to speculate that God does not exist is futile particularly if one has no idea what a Godhead is.

I do not speculate about the non-existence of your god. I state it as factual due to a lack of any evidence to the contrary.

I assure you I understand Christianity and all Abrahamic religions far far more than any Christian I have ever known. Where your vision is limited by beliefs, my view is built on the historical aspects of these religions. Hence, understanding the Christian concept of the "Godhead" is very elementary.

Quote:All morality would be subjective including the very meaning of the term "morality". Sanity would mean the same as insanity to the insane. Therefore there does exist politics and there are some things that are moral and immoral objectively speaking.

I have no idea what your point is here.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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06-12-2013, 10:32 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 10:08 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 09:04 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
I don't see why not. You have to wonder, why does god always say "us" and "our" and that other thing with the commandments “You shall have no other gods before me." Why other? Are there more gods? where exactly? Are they working together?
In scripture, there is a Godhead, singular as in a political seat that is also referred to as the Most High. There is therefore a political body of god hence the plural. Most people believe this refers to the angelic order in heaven as described by Ezekials wheels within wheels.

The reason why man cannot eat of the tree of life is because corruption cannot be allowed in heaven. You are touching on an immense and all encompassing line of thought. Please note that the two flaming swords that guard the way and that turn every direction are symbolic and not unlike the two cheribum that sit on the ark of the covenant. They represent left and right, accuse and excuse, give and take. They are no different than that which happens in our own conscience. In short this means men must overcome their own hypocritical reasoning to have eternal life.

On the simplest level, if we think God is corrupt, we are corrupt. Our Maker being corrupt in our imagery consequently makes us corrupt in Whose image we are made. On the subconscious level we all maintain an image of god; that which defines our morality. If the image is corrupt, we consequently will reason hypocritically, wherein morally we draw lines for others to meet that we ourselves hypocritically won't meet. Hence the swords are our own judgment of ourselves.

The point of the Christ is that he who was pure became sin so that we may become the righteousness of God. How can this be possible? Because that is what the word Christ means. He is the True and pure image of God sent to men so as to believe and be saved. Because as sinners, only by being merciful can we receive mercy and our conscience be clean and right before God. So when God gives a covering for our nakedness, it is a metaphor for the life of Christ and his sacrifice that covers our sins wherein he says, "this is my blood that will be shed so that sins may be forgiven". This is all spiritual terminology. But ultimately it does clean the conscience when understood properly.
this is the stuff I want to hear more often. It makes so much more sense with a mythological lens, it's almost like dualism with a hint of buddhism. Now, is it two opposing dualities or do they compliment each other?

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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06-12-2013, 10:39 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 08:32 PM)childeye Wrote:  To make this simple, I would point out that I am simply asserting that Love rules as the goodness in mankind. All subsequent reasoning is based upon this premise that God is Love.
First, you're defining love as a person and not as a state of being or as an emotion, here you're already engaging in fallacious arguments with the assumption that A leads to B. It doesnt.


Quote: I don't need scriptures nor marcion to assert it.

yet you have nothing else to back up your assertions (f.i. as above "God is love") than scripture used in the marcionite fashion.


Quote: When I state it as fact that the apostles were killed for speaking the Truth I am simply stating the bibles report.
The only 'apostle' recorded as 'killed for speaking the truth' is James in the canon you recognize (only because the same religious figures you dont like from the 4th century recognized it as such)


Quote:The fact remains that men who preach the Truth are persecuted by those who hold power through lies. Those who preach the Truth would never persecute anyone. Do you disagree?
"men who preach the Truth are persecuted by those who hold power through lies" a common Xtian axiom used by both the heretics (like you and other gnostics, etc) and the orthodox (like athanasius) when their position was threatened and a minority. It's a invalid argument because it's subjective to what you hold the Truth to be. It's shown fallacious just in the Xtian tradition alone.

Again brush up your 'apologetic' and we'll have a fallacy-free discussion one of these days
Cheers

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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