We can't judge god by our standards.
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06-12-2013, 10:41 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
If I said, "you can't judge god as being good because he is beyond such a label."
"You can't judge how powerful or how wise or how knowledegable he is because he is beyond your ability to know these things"
"You can't know anything about this god to even call it a god for the same reason"
"You can't even know if he's a god because he is beyond your human concept of what a god is"

You can't judge a god's existence because he is so beyond existence and things beyond existence do not exist. (by definition)

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06-12-2013, 10:54 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 10:08 PM)childeye Wrote:  On the subconscious level we all maintain an image of god; that which defines our morality.

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06-12-2013, 11:15 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 09:04 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
I don't see why not. You have to wonder, why does god always say "us" and "our" and that other thing with the commandments “You shall have no other gods before me." Why other? Are there more gods? where exactly? Are they working together?

And now, for the historical point of view.

Right from the very beginning line of Genesis we see the following:

1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The name "God" as seen above comes from the ancient Hebrew word known as "Elohim," which is plural. What you see as singular in the English translation is actually plural in the original text. Hence, the proper translation is as follows:

1:1 - In the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth.

That is precisely why you see the "us" and the "our" in the text just a few verses down. The original text is polytheist in its natural state.

Furthermore, the "us" and "our" is a reflection of the masculine and feminine aspects of these gods. And when you see verse 1:26 that says:

1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

It should be understood and translated as follows:

Then the gods said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

And then after that you will see the masculine and feminine being manifested in verse 1:27. Note below the standard translation:

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Therefore, even in the poorly translated English text, the text clearly shows that both male and female were created in the image of these gods, demonstrating again the polytheistic nature of these gods.

It is interesting to note that in these verses we see both male and female being created together, while next chapter of Genesis has Adam coming first, with Eve coming some time later. This demonstrates 2 different creation stories that actually contradict each other extensively when viewed from a strictly physical point.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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06-12-2013, 11:20 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 05:33 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Continued use of an argument can be an indicator that it's effective.

No, it can't. An argument that continues to be used by someone who has no idea what they are talking about is still bullshit.

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07-12-2013, 04:28 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
...24 pages? I can't read all of that! Well... I COULD but I don wanna. So on to my arguement and sorry if it's been said.

If we cannot make moral judgements about god then we have no means of determining if god is good or evil. With no basis for determination between (at least) two alternatives it is best to consider both to be equally likely. Therefore it's just as likely that god is the absolute epitome of evil as it is to be the absolute good and no arguement can ever change that. So... flip a coin for the nature of god!
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07-12-2013, 06:25 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 11:20 PM)Cephalotus Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 05:33 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Continued use of an argument can be an indicator that it's effective.

No, it can't. An argument that continues to be used by someone who has no idea what they are talking about is still bullshit.
Yes, that's why I said "can be" rather than "is necessarily." It is certainly an indicator, but is not proof.
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07-12-2013, 07:57 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 08:20 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 07:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  There a few gems in here. Sometime people have provided a better explanation than I had before, but I still don't understand why gods very human actions (emotions) are above judgment from those humans.

Also, I find it rather peculiar that people become really frustrated with me when i ask these questions. Consider They can't fathom why I would spend my time trying to relate/understand/make sense of what is nonsense. I can't respond well and find the faults of something I don't understand. Which is why I pick it up, examine it, and try to figure out whats wrong with it and if I can fix it before I simply just throw it away. Drinking Beverage
You do well in your honesty. It would be a hypocritical mind that would throw away something it does not understand. This response you give in your post already shows a perfectly logical reasoning that understands why some one cannot judge God, by assuming that God is all knowing and we are not. The only recourse for those who would berate you for your common sense, is to point out the pre-supposition that God is all knowing. However no one here will claim they know everything and cannot therefore say for certain that God is not all knowing. Otherwise they would be hypocrits, doing the very same thing by pre-supposing God is not all-knowing. This is why when it comes to the Godhead it will always be a matter of faith. For there is no higher seat.

But this issue is being lost in the semantics. Who says we cannot judge whether some emotions are good and some bad? We are meant to experience them both so as to know the difference. The bible says we will judge angels. The pride issue confounds the entire reasoning. It's not supposed to be personal. Otherwise vanity would rule again in heaven just as it did with Satan in power.

It's clear you don't understand the OP. I can judge god by his actions if those actions, if committed by man, would land him in jail. The god we created is suppose to be everything and in everything. If god is everything, then god is also plant and animal, which includes humans. Therefore, god is also human.

Even a toddler has a sense of morality and empathy. God appears to have none. There is no point in listing all the atrocities. One I find particularly heinous is the infanticide, which if god is to take credit for our biology, is still doing today on a massive scale.

Since we have the capacity for judging right and wrong amongst ourselves, and god has so glaringly obvious human characteristics, then logically we also have the ability to judge him as well. Otherwise - why give us the capacity for judgment and insist that we can't use it on the very being that so in adequately and downright negligently created us...

I don't believe in god. Therefore, judging something I don't believe exists is pointless. What I'm actually saying is that I'm judging the god humans so obviously created.

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07-12-2013, 07:58 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(06-12-2013 11:15 PM)Free Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 09:04 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
I don't see why not. You have to wonder, why does god always say "us" and "our" and that other thing with the commandments “You shall have no other gods before me." Why other? Are there more gods? where exactly? Are they working together?

And now, for the historical point of view.

Right from the very beginning line of Genesis we see the following:

1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The name "God" as seen above comes from the ancient Hebrew word known as "Elohim," which is plural. What you see as singular in the English translation is actually plural in the original text. Hence, the proper translation is as follows:

1:1 - In the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth.

That is precisely why you see the "us" and the "our" in the text just a few verses down. The original text is polytheist in its natural state.

Furthermore, the "us" and "our" is a reflection of the masculine and feminine aspects of these gods. And when you see verse 1:26 that says:

1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

It should be understood and translated as follows:

Then the gods said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

And then after that you will see the masculine and feminine being manifested in verse 1:27. Note below the standard translation:

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Therefore, even in the poorly translated English text, the text clearly shows that both male and female were created in the image of these gods, demonstrating again the polytheistic nature of these gods.

It is interesting to note that in these verses we see both male and female being created together, while next chapter of Genesis has Adam coming first, with Eve coming some time later. This demonstrates 2 different creation stories that actually contradict each other extensively when viewed from a strictly physical point.
I saw a monolatrist video explaining this aspect.
Yup I noticed that too about man and women created together. I looked into this and Adam's first wife was Lilith but she wouldn't submit and called gods name, left the garden and was cursed by god to have children only for them to die and as revenge she causes complications for pregnant women which usually lead to the death of her child and is pretty much a succubus towards men. Charms are created to ward her off and yeah...I suppose the line about men and woman created together is the remainder of that story.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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07-12-2013, 08:29 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(07-12-2013 07:57 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 08:20 PM)childeye Wrote:  You do well in your honesty. It would be a hypocritical mind that would throw away something it does not understand. This response you give in your post already shows a perfectly logical reasoning that understands why some one cannot judge God, by assuming that God is all knowing and we are not. The only recourse for those who would berate you for your common sense, is to point out the pre-supposition that God is all knowing. However no one here will claim they know everything and cannot therefore say for certain that God is not all knowing. Otherwise they would be hypocrits, doing the very same thing by pre-supposing God is not all-knowing. This is why when it comes to the Godhead it will always be a matter of faith. For there is no higher seat.

But this issue is being lost in the semantics. Who says we cannot judge whether some emotions are good and some bad? We are meant to experience them both so as to know the difference. The bible says we will judge angels. The pride issue confounds the entire reasoning. It's not supposed to be personal. Otherwise vanity would rule again in heaven just as it did with Satan in power.

It's clear you don't understand the OP. I can judge god by his actions if those actions, if committed by man, would land him in jail. The god we created is suppose to be everything and in everything. If god is everything, then god is also plant and animal, which includes humans. Therefore, god is also human.

Even a toddler has a sense of morality and empathy. God appears to have none. There is no point in listing all the atrocities. One I find particularly heinous is the infanticide, which if god is to take credit for our biology, is still doing today on a massive scale.

Since we have the capacity for judging right and wrong amongst ourselves, and god has so glaringly obvious human characteristics, then logically we also have the ability to judge him as well. Otherwise - why give us the capacity for judgment and insist that we can't use it on the very being that so in adequately and downright negligently created us...

I don't believe in god. Therefore, judging something I don't believe exists is pointless. What I'm actually saying is that I'm judging the god humans so obviously created.


Yes! For the sake of conversation so theists can appreciate the stance of the non-believer.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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07-12-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(07-12-2013 07:58 AM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 11:15 PM)Free Wrote:  And now, for the historical point of view.

Right from the very beginning line of Genesis we see the following:

1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The name "God" as seen above comes from the ancient Hebrew word known as "Elohim," which is plural. What you see as singular in the English translation is actually plural in the original text. Hence, the proper translation is as follows:

1:1 - In the beginning the gods created the heavens and the earth.

That is precisely why you see the "us" and the "our" in the text just a few verses down. The original text is polytheist in its natural state.

Furthermore, the "us" and "our" is a reflection of the masculine and feminine aspects of these gods. And when you see verse 1:26 that says:

1:26 - Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

It should be understood and translated as follows:

Then the gods said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

And then after that you will see the masculine and feminine being manifested in verse 1:27. Note below the standard translation:

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Therefore, even in the poorly translated English text, the text clearly shows that both male and female were created in the image of these gods, demonstrating again the polytheistic nature of these gods.

It is interesting to note that in these verses we see both male and female being created together, while next chapter of Genesis has Adam coming first, with Eve coming some time later. This demonstrates 2 different creation stories that actually contradict each other extensively when viewed from a strictly physical point.
I saw a monolatrist video explaining this aspect.
Yup I noticed that too about man and women created together. I looked into this and Adam's first wife was Lilith but she wouldn't submit and called gods name, left the garden and was cursed by god to have children only for them to die and as revenge she causes complications for pregnant women which usually lead to the death of her child and is pretty much a succubus towards men. Charms are created to ward her off and yeah...I suppose the line about men and woman created together is the remainder of that story.

It is interesting to note that- if we accept some of the words attributed to Jesus in the Gospels as being things he actually said- it can be demonstrated that Jesus himself was a polytheist.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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