We can't judge god by our standards.
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28-11-2013, 08:50 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 08:21 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(28-11-2013 05:00 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  - As you say, we are "made in his image". So why are his abhorrent actions so foreign to our innate moral sense, the one he instilled in us?

The idea that we live in Fallen world is fundamental to Judaism and Christianity. We were "made in his image" but the Fall has corrupted us. The noetic effect of sin is an important idea in the Reformed tradition.

Yeah...but they just pulled that shit out of their ass: it's nowhere in the Bible.
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28-11-2013, 08:51 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 06:50 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(28-11-2013 06:37 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  You don't want an explanation. You want some stupid apologetics so you can jump down someone's throat. Angel

I resent that comment, HoC! Gwen would not be pleased!

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28-11-2013, 08:53 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 08:17 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(28-11-2013 07:59 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  do we really want to go back to the age of scripture?

Of course not! That is not what I am sayimg. My point is that if you want to seriously engage a pious Jew or Christian you need to understand their position. You can't invent a strawman and slash at it with your figurative sword. What is the point? That is a form of intellectual masturbation.
I don't see myself engaging any of them in a debate, I am curious but more content hearing what the more experienced have to say. I'll keep in mind what you said though.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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28-11-2013, 09:16 PM (This post was last modified: 28-11-2013 10:08 PM by Chippy.)
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 08:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Theology is an empty set. It is making claims of the unknowable by delusional people. It is the misshapen bastard child of philosophy.

Yeah, yeah I get it. That is irrelevant. If you have decided to engage in a theological debate (e.g. Is Yahweh always just?) --and I don't understand why you would--then you are obliged to "play" within the narrative. You can't make up your own narrative and pretend to be engaging in a dialogue.

If I want to even pretend to engage in a discussion about the thematic significance of the witches in Macbeth I can't say "the witches don't exist, they are made up" or invent my own version of Macbeth and pretend that I have made a substantive point. Similarly if you want to discuss the matter of whether Yahweh is benevolent then (a) understand the narrative and (b) abide by the narrative. It goes without saying that an atheist doesn't believe that the OT is factual so it is as crass to make that point as it is to say "the witches don't exist, they are made up" in an essay on Macbeth.

Quote:His statement is a meaningless claim of something of which he has no knowledge, because he can have no knowledge of it.

Your statement is idiotic. Most fiction is coherent and it is discussed and intelligently argued about. That is what is done in English literature courses and cinema studies courses. If you want to have an argument about Citizen Kane with someone most rational people would agree that seeing the film is a prerequisite to any meaningful discussion. You haven't said anything worthwhile if you utter "Citizen Kane is just a film, someone made that story up".
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28-11-2013, 09:21 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 09:16 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(28-11-2013 08:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Theology is an empty set. It is making claims of the unknowable by delusional people. It is the misshapen bastard child of philosophy.

Yeah, yeah I get it. That is irrelevant. If you have decided to engage in a theological debate (e.g. Is Yahweh always just?) --and I don't understand why you would--then you are obliged to "play" within the narrative. You can't make up your own narrative and pretend to be engaging in a dialogue.

If I want to even pretend to engage in a discussion about the thematic significance of the witches in Macbeth I can't say "the witches don't exist, they are made up" or invent my own version of Macbeth and pretend that I have made a substantive point. Similarly if you want to discuss the matter of whether Yahweh is benevolent then (a) understand the narrative and (b) abide by the narrative. It goes without saying that an atheist doesn't believe that the OT is factual so it is as crass to make that point as it is to say "the witches don't exist, they are made up" in an essay on Macbeth.

Quote:His statement is a meaningless claim of something of which he has no knowledge, because he can have no knowledge of it.

Your statement is idiotic. Most fiction is coherent and it is discussed and intelligently argued about. That is what is done in English literature courses and cinema studies courses. If you want to have an argument about Citizen Kane with someone most rational people would agree that seeing the film is a prerquisite to any meaningful discussion. You haven't said anything worthwhile if you utter "Citizen Kane is just a film, someone mad that story up".

Comparing theology to discussing fiction is silly. No one claims to believe that the witches in Macbeth are real, but people do claim religious belief systems as reality. What's more, they claim knowledge that they cannot possibly have.

What I contend is that theological discussion is pointless. Discussion of religious texts as cultural artifacts is one thing, but discussion of their portraying reality is absurd.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-11-2013, 09:26 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 08:50 PM)Julius Wrote:  Yeah...but they just pulled that shit out of their ass: it's nowhere in the Bible.

Again that is besides the point and in any event that doctrine does have a Biblical basis. There is no authoritative interpretation of the Bible and your comment implies that such a thing exists. The Protestant interpretation of Christianity is just as legitimate as any other and Protestanism can't be brushed aside as an irrelevancy to Christianity. Protestanism is part of mainline Christianity and its creation is a major event in the history of Christianity. There is no excuse for your ignorance.
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28-11-2013, 09:31 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 09:26 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(28-11-2013 08:50 PM)Julius Wrote:  Yeah...but they just pulled that shit out of their ass: it's nowhere in the Bible.

Again that is besides the point and in any event that doctrine does have a Biblical basis. There is no authoritative interpretation of the Bible and your comment implies that such a thing exists. The Protestant interpretation of Christianity is just as legitimate as any other and Protestanism can't be brushed aside as an irrelevancy to Christianity. Protestanism is part of mainline Christianity and its creation is a major event in the history of Christianity. There is no excuse for your ignorance.

What do you mean by 'legitimate'?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-11-2013, 09:40 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 04:50 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Can someone explain this argument to me? You can't judge god by our standards. Why not? We are in his image, which would include himself, no?

My ability to judge has nothing to do with the object that is being judged.
My standards of judgement cover every aspect of reality. I judge something as existent or not as important or not as good or not good. My ability to place value upon anything is not impaired in the least.

My standards are the standards of the universe. The smallest constituents of my body can also be found within largest & hottest stars in the universe. The forces that act upon my body can also be found in strongest of black holes. I am a living being in this universe. My standards judge the existence of gods.

I determine if a god exists or doesn't.

It is your god that cannot judge me because my existence is unfathomable to an imaginary figment created in within the dark putrid crevices of your brain.

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28-11-2013, 09:42 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 09:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  What I contend is that theological discussion is pointless. Discussion of religious texts as cultural artifacts is one thing, but discussion of their portraying reality is absurd.

It's a flying monkey thread, so why don't you fly your ass outta here.

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28-11-2013, 09:45 PM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(28-11-2013 09:26 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(28-11-2013 08:50 PM)Julius Wrote:  Yeah...but they just pulled that shit out of their ass: it's nowhere in the Bible.

Again that is besides the point and in any event that doctrine does have a Biblical basis. There is no authoritative interpretation of the Bible and your comment implies that such a thing exists...


Bull Shit. Utter Bull Shit. You can't show me the Biblical Passage and I never implied anything.

You are either a Troll or an Idiot. Which one is it Mother Fucker?
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