We can't judge god by our standards.
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29-11-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 07:20 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  But HOW, chippy. That's what I don't understand. HOW did the fall of man prevent man from recalibrating his moral compass? HOW did the fall of man mean that actions of god - if done by man - would land that man in hell, or life in prison?

For the sake of simplicity I'll confine my attention to the Protestant Reformed tradition. I'll also just use man as a contraction of human.

According to the Reformed tradition when man Fell he became corrupted physically such that he became vulnerable to illness, aging and death but also cognitively, i.e. his reason too became corrupted such that reason was no longer able to lead him to ultimate truth. Thus the behaviour of Yahweh only seems evil to our corrupted faculties. The effects of the Fall were so profound that man is entirely incapable of "recalibrating his moral compass". Man suffers total depravity and is entirely incapable of helping himself. If for example the order to slaughter the Amalekites looks evil it is because you are viewing it through a debased moral faculty.

Furthermore, Yahweh is in a privileged position. He legislates morality and moral values for humans to follow. As the sole source of value whatever He does is necessarily good, right and just because He decrees it such. Yahweh is not subject to morality he is the creator of it.

Quote:The one person he saves in a burning building while 15 people die sort of crap.

Christianity doesn't have anything to say about situations like that other than death is inevitable in a Fallen world. AFAIK there is no reason in Christianity to believe that the one saved person was special. Even the Calvinist idea of conditional election relates to who God chooses for eternal salvation it has nothing to do with how his life on Earth will be or how it will end.

Quote:So why does the fall of man mean that god can't be judged by our standards if our standards appear to be MORE stringent than his?

In the context of a divine command morality our standard is completely irrelevant. Your position assumes the existence of some independent external standard which you are using to rank Yahweh's morality versus that of the USA. The Calvinist and Orthodox Jewish argument is that there is no such external standard not even so-called natural law.

Setting aside my temporary adoption of Calvinism and Orthodox Judaism for the sake of argument and speaking as myself, the "Yahweh is evil argument" is question-begging. It assumes to be true that which it should be demonstrating. You should be aware of your own metaphysical baggage and not just assume that your ideas about what is good, right and just are shared by everyone. Your disposition towards Yahweh springs from the liberal-humanistic ideas you have inherited from your culture. They aren't human universals. Wahabist Muslims and Orthodox Jews also reject these liberal-humanistic values. If someone doesn't share your conception of morality then there is no point in appealing to it. Orthodox Jews don't believe in liberal feminism or any other ideology that has its roots in the Enlightenment so there is no point in appealing to any such ideology. As far as Orthodox Jews are concerned the role of women was clearly stated by Yahweh and is recorded in the Torah and elucidated in the Talmud. You can argue that Enlightenment values are superior, that liberal feminism is superior, that liberal-humanist values are superior etc. but you can't just assume that and proceed to denounce Yahweh and his wacky ways.

Does that explain the issue?
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29-11-2013, 08:47 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 08:36 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I realize that these arguments are pointless. I get that. But these are the people I have in my life.

You asked a good question and a few people on this board gave you some good answers (I even learned a few things). I appreciate your post.

However, this mental defective names "Chippy" shows up and decides to spread his monkey poo all over the topic. He ought to be told to knock it off or be banned, and it's a shame that the Mods and Admins on this board won't take control of idiots like this.

I mean, look at the posts created by the character "I and I" who went on and on and on and had the habit of destroying good posts - just like this "Chippy". No...but the Admins and Mods won't do a thing because of "Free Speech" or some such shit - which gives liscence to the worst disrupters: the Trolls, the Bitchers...the Monkey-poo slingers, etc. Shit...there was even a full-blown pedophile stalking this plave for awhile and he really turned shit upside down.

It's a damned shame, and it's getting tiresome.
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29-11-2013, 08:56 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 08:47 AM)Julius Wrote:  However, this mental defective names "Chippy" shows up and decides to spread his monkey poo all over the topic. He ought to be told to knock it off or be banned, and it's a shame that the Mods and Admins on this board won't take control of idiots like this.

[Image: Wambulance.jpg]

There's an ignore feature. Comparing chippy to, well, anyone, highlights your ignorance.

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29-11-2013, 09:01 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 08:56 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 08:47 AM)Julius Wrote:  However, this mental defective names "Chippy" shows up and decides to spread his monkey poo all over the topic. He ought to be told to knock it off or be banned, and it's a shame that the Mods and Admins on this board won't take control of idiots like this.

[Image: Wambulance.jpg]

There's an ignore feature. Comparing chippy to, well, anyone, highlights your ignorance.

No Cantor,

There is something wrong about this forum. Specifically, it is a lot of the defectives that are allowed to roam the place....and I bet they are keeping a lot of good people away: people who might actually have something interesting to say.
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29-11-2013, 09:09 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 07:55 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Ok, chip. Then I'm interested in knowing how you deal with this argument.

It's late here and I am tired so excuse my typos and possible lack of lucidity.

I wouldn't deal with that argument because you lack the necessary common ground that is needed to persuade. The specific plan of attack depends on the person and the where they sit on the Subjective Experience-Reason spectrum. If their religiosity is based on some subjective experience like a Mormon's "burning in the bosom" or a Pentecostal's charisma (e.g. speaking in tingues) then they need to be handled completely differently to someone that offers reasons for their religiosity (even if those reasons are poor). Either way the focus should be on foundational ideas: don't pick grapes when you can cut stems. Usually "picking grapes" (e.g. "Yahweh is a prick") will not work at all.

Quote:So this is the best they have. I hear what you are saying that it's pointless, and on a purely philosophical level it is. But real life doesn't always work in ideals. Any philosophical surface discussions can be had but anything deeper than that and the conversation is above their head. And if I'm honest, sometimes over my head as well. (Those "what's reality and how do I know" arguments bore me and I feel are completely pointless)

Reasonable doubt can often be sowed in the absence of any sophisticated philosophical argument. My comments regarding the split of Islam and the late revelation of Christianity to China and India are examples of this sort of approach.

Quote:Do you mean to tell me that you would never teach anyone to ride a bike because they need training wheels first? Would you berate that child for not being as advanced as you? Everyone has to start somewhere. Looking down at those who crawl before they walk (as you once did) like they aren't worth your time is fine if you wanna take that position, but the majority of deeply religious people are everyday people who need to crawl. These are the masses. Not the scholarly religious. At least, not in my circles. And just because you wouldn't waste your time doesn't mean that I'm wrong for doing so. Ya know, my position isn't any less *legitimate* than yours just because they are different.

The problem with that is if you give them a poor argument, e.g. "Yahweh is an evil cunt", then they will go to an apologetics site and read the apologetic response to that standard criticism and just repeat it to you. Then you will get type-cast as a generic atheist. Find out what sustains their religiosity and then dissect that. No one thinks "I'm a Christian because God ordered the slaughter of the Amalakites and He hates hates companion planting" so there is no point in
going to those topics.
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29-11-2013, 09:09 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 08:47 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(29-11-2013 08:36 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I realize that these arguments are pointless. I get that. But these are the people I have in my life.

You asked a good question and a few people on this board gave you some good answers (I even learned a few things). I appreciate your post.

However, this mental defective names "Chippy" shows up and decides to spread his monkey poo all over the topic. He ought to be told to knock it off or be banned, and it's a shame that the Mods and Admins on this board won't take control of idiots like this.

I mean, look at the posts created by the character "I and I" who went on and on and on and had the habit of destroying good posts - just like this "Chippy". No...but the Admins and Mods won't do a thing because of "Free Speech" or some such shit - which gives liscence to the worst disrupters: the Trolls, the Bitchers...the Monkey-poo slingers, etc. Shit...there was even a full-blown pedophile stalking this plave for awhile and he really turned shit upside down.

It's a damned shame, and it's getting tiresome.


You do realize (I hope) that complaining about people who complain is just..... dunno..........epic.

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29-11-2013, 09:13 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 09:01 AM)Julius Wrote:  I bet they are keeping a lot of good people away: people who might actually have something interesting to say.

People like you that don't know what Protestanism is?
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29-11-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 08:36 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I live in a world where I am, quite literally, the only atheist. I live in a world where I am the focus of conversion attempts. I am tired of just walking away from these, ok?

So then start with the proselytization arguments. Unless the proselytization arguments was "You should become Christian because God is genocidal" I don't think it is a natural transition to start talking about how Yahweh is a prick. Work with what you are given.

PS:- Time to sleep. Keep asking questions if this is unclear and I'll endeavour to answer them tomorrow.
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29-11-2013, 09:37 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
I have a white collar job in a white collar business that I own. My parents, grew up blue collar. So when they got rich, they still preferred the company of blue collar people.

Therefore, that's all I ever knew. When my dad died, he left us with more money than I could ever spend in my lifetime. Yes. I'm filthy rich. I don't ever have to work. I don't know what it's like to not be able to pay my way, or pay my bills. I work because I chose to.

You know what I drive? A Buick. You wanna know what kind of clothes I wear? Jeans and t-shirts. No Jimmy's, not chrisitan louboutin shoes. I don't carry fendi bags and I don't drink martinis and eat filet every night. I don't take my car to the mechanic - I fix it my damn self.

Beer and Mac and cheese makes this girl happy.

I don't like pretension. It irritates me. The majority of white collar rich folk will only be friends with you if you are rich like them. Pffft. I prefer the company of those who don't keep their elbows up.

My dad's favorite expression was "an ounce of pretension is worth a pound of manure."
So yeah. Academics are great. They have lots of great ideas and great knowledge...but the majority of them lack functionality beyond that. They can design a house, but they can't actually build it.

They work in theories and hypotheticals like some artists work in oils.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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29-11-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: We can't judge god by our standards.
(29-11-2013 09:01 AM)Julius Wrote:  No Cantor,

There is something wrong about this forum. Specifically, it is a lot of the defectives that are allowed to roam the place....and I bet they are keeping a lot of good people away: people who might actually have something interesting to say.

There are better ways to address this, such as reporting a post or PMing a mod. The way you're doing it, by publicly seeking allies against a perceived wrong, is actually more disruptive than the behavior you scorn.

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