We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
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05-10-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
(05-10-2016 09:04 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 08:59 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Which manuscript?
Your "disproof" of the True God is in a manuscript, in a book?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Thermody...0471973947
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05-10-2016, 09:46 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
(05-10-2016 09:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 08:01 AM)theBorg Wrote:  So, you are new in Quantum Physics? There is proven the absence of human logic, if the world is "right", see:

Is lack of Human Logic proven in 2016? https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_lac...en_in_2016

QM is non-intuitive, but it is logical. ...........
Dear respectful friend, how then the logical Albert Einstein was not happy with the Copenhagen Interpretation?
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05-10-2016, 09:48 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
(05-10-2016 09:44 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 09:04 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Your "disproof" of the True God is in a manuscript, in a book?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Thermody...0471973947

The available energy in Universe runs out - the law of Thermodynamics. Do you follow me?
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05-10-2016, 09:50 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
(05-10-2016 09:48 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 09:44 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Thermody...0471973947

The available energy in Universe runs out - the law of Thermodynamics. Do you follow me?

Nobody follows you, Borgy.
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05-10-2016, 09:52 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
(05-10-2016 09:50 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 09:48 AM)theBorg Wrote:  The available energy in Universe runs out - the law of Thermodynamics. Do you follow me?

Nobody follows you, Borgy.
Then follow the educated atheists:


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05-10-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
(05-10-2016 09:46 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 09:15 AM)Chas Wrote:  QM is non-intuitive, but it is logical. ...........
Dear respectful friend, how then the logical Albert Einstein was not happy with the Copenhagen Interpretation?

Because the Copenhagen Interpretation is non-intuitive. It is, in fact, bizarre.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-10-2016, 10:01 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
(05-10-2016 09:27 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  It's been my experience, over the last few years, that the people who whine about the burden of proof are usually the ones who can't present a case to begin with.
So they cry about the fact that they have to do so in the first place.

See, if you come up to me and tell me about your god, and you want me to believe in him, then you do have a burden of proof.
Otherwise, I say no. I don't believe. End of discussion. Start of whining.

Quoted For Truth!

Now, I'm going to add my own commentary to your excellent "brief overview" of the basic problems with the case presented by the various sorts of Believers we encounter.

(05-10-2016 09:27 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  These are the reasons people say when asked about their belief in god:
Faith
Miracles
The bible (or other holy book)
Personal Experience
Science


Faith

Someone who asks you to trust them on faith before evidence can be presented, or before the "proof" will reveal itself, is a psychological manipulator -- a "con man", as Hobbit put it.

The very word evidence is from the root evident, meaning that it is visible to anyone who looks at it. When the "evidence" (quotes to indicate ironic use, here) only presents itself to certain people, or under condition that it is believed before it is seen, then it is not evidence... it is gullibility.

Miracles

So-called "miracles" have been scientifically researched, time and time again, and found to be either caused by other, natural phenomena, or to be hoaxes based on the "believe it first and it will be true for you" phenomenon described above. There are entire organizations dedicated to scientifically testing claims of the paranormal, including "miracles", and every time the miracle fails.

Massive studies have been done on the efficacy of prayer, and it was found that not only does prayer make no difference, whatsoever, in double-blind situations, it actually decreases the likelihood of recovery when the patients studied knew they were being prayed for. This is evidence (visible to all) that prayer may actually harm you by making you think some external, non-existent being is going to come save you from your ailment, rather than focusing your physical and mental energies on recovering on your own with the help of medical science.

As Hobbit pointed out, most "miracles" are so subtle, working on invisible to the naked eye functions: recovery from cancer and other diseases, or milk weeping from a statue, for instance, that even if the event really happens it can't be determined if it's natural or supernatural... so the religious say "It must have been the Power of God™ at work!" But things like regrowing a severed limb, a large and highly visible event which would be evident to all never, ever happens.

Miracles are simply not real.

The bible/holy texts

Internal contradictions and evidence of editing aside, every single religious group has their own Holy Texts™, which make extraordinary and mutually-exclusive claims.

They can't all be right. We have no more reason to think your book is right in its claims than you have reason to believe the Qur'an is right. Indeed, to us, there's no difference between them-- they're the products of ignorant religious fanatics who didn't know what DNA was, which is why they thought a woman could be made out of the rib of a man. But we do know what DNA is, now, and we know that the story is utterly wrong and the product of a fundamental ignorance of how life on earth got here and how it works.

[Image: e19614585e31488e580aa93653e72d91.jpg]

Personal Experience

Listening to personal testimony also gets us stories about alien abductions, encounters with Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster, et cetera. People often lie, or fool themselves into believing a lie they told themselves before telling others, because they desperately want something to be true.

I have zero, repeat: zero reason to believe in the personal anecdotes of religious people, absent solid evidence (see my definition of evidence above).

Science

Almost literally every scientifically-testable thing in the Bible turns out to be totally wrong. From the crazy stories about talking snakes and rib-women in a magical garden where people live forever, to anachronisms in historical records, to the story of Lamarckian inheritance (what people believed in before Gregor Mendel discovered genetic inheritance) found in Genesis chapter 30 that forms the basis for the wealth of the founder of the nation of Israel... every bit of it fails.

And not only fails, but fails in a way that shows me that the people writing your Holy Scriptures™ had no idea what they were talking about... they certainly were not being inspired by an omniscient Creator God to write these things. There is zero reason I should give your holy book any more credence than you and I both give to the Qur'an.

The Final Nail

For me, the final nail is the obvious nature of the control structures being put in place by a fanatical, patriarchal priest-class, using "God" to get all the Israelite people under them to obey the social structure they wished to see. They sought power and a sense of pride in national/tribal identity, and they used religion to do it. In order to attain that power, they had to get the people "under" them to submit their own willpower and to accept the rules of the priesthood claiming to speak for God.

The results are barbaric, to me. Not only does it command brutal slaughter in the name of this God, and slavery for foreign people (but only Indentured Servitude for fellow Israelites, so that's nice), but it makes it clear that women are subjugated property and are considered unclean. Anyone who deviates from their structure is to be put to death-- nonbelievers, homosexuals, and even disobedient children! And the sexual restrictions are so repressive that they make people like you, Borgy, get uptight even about kissing. Guilt and shame are used as manipulative tools to attain obedience. It is pathetically transparent to anyone outside the system, just as the weird rules of some cult that tells its people to never eat meat and only poop in a jar (for instance) would be transparent to you.

But worst of the barbarity is the notion of "free choice" coupled with the threat of Hell. I cannot believe that any human being is so pathetic that they would bow in worship of a being that says "worship me or be tortured for eternity". That is a level of moral depravity on par with rape, as I explained in another thread.

You speak of the "True God"... but I say that no being worthy of being called God needs to manipulate humans by threatening torture. That is something only humans (priests) need to do, in order to terrify their victims into submission and obedience. Keeps the priests fed and well-dressed, I suppose.

Your "God" concept is beneath my sense of morality, to the point I find it disgusting. Every element of your religion smacks of cult behavior on a massive scale. Nothing in your scripture gives any evidence of being inspired by a hyperintelligent being, and gives every indication of being crafted by ignorant humans in a time before scientific knowledge.

Humanity needs to grow up and grow out of its superstitious adolescence. And you need to stop worrying about who says the "f-word" (hint: it's FUCK) and figure out that you have allowed other human beings to control your mind.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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05-10-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
(05-10-2016 09:52 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(05-10-2016 09:50 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Nobody follows you, Borgy.
Then follow the educated atheists:



I don't watch any videos that you post. Ever. I'm familiar with entropy, though. I learn my science in a classroom from scientists who carry PhD's. Not from idiots on the internet who can't string a coherent sentence together.

Oh, and btw, educated scientists can be atheists or theists. I don't measure the credibility of a scientists' research or argument on where they rest of the theism/atheism spectrum. I measure it based on their credentials in their chosen field of science.

You sir, have shit for credentials.
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05-10-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
Is theBorg = Heywood?

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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05-10-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: We'd better say "no false gods", than "no gods"
(05-10-2016 10:03 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Is theBorg = Heywood?

Nah. Heywood was a douchebag, but he was a smart guy who made reasonable (if misguided and factually-questionable) arguments.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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