We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
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16-09-2010, 05:55 PM
We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
I may be treading on old ground here, forgive me i have just signed up.

I have had many a debate with religious folk about the usual things: existence of god, creation, evolution and the like. Often it gets to a point where I am put on the spot and asked to answer for all the unknown answers to the universe. Apparently im such a smarty pants to know so much about things that happened millions and billions of years ago yet I was not there.

When this happens I have to put my hands up and admit I don't know! Then follows the "victory dance" of the religious folk, happy enough that they have the answers i do not.

Go back in time. Things such as earth quakes, lightening and all manner of natures fury on this planet. They could only be explained with the information and technology that existed at the time. One example could possibly be that an earth quake is caused by an almighty god/entity punishing us for all our sins grrrrr! Or as we know today through science that is not the case.

This is one example of the point I am trying to make, and that is as follows...

We can't explain certain things about our Universe. Not because they cannot be explained but rather we lack the technology/intellect/understanding to grasp it......YET.

what happened at teh big bang? we know this. What happened before? not sure really, we can make a suggestion based on what we know about the things around us. But until we develop better science to prove it then it remains a theory. And we all know how much religion likes our theories!

The beauty of science it that it never stops, it is not happy not knowing. And in this will always strive to understand more and more if it is applied correctly. Lets just hope that we don't destroy ourselves before we find the answers we are looking for!

Nealson

It's easy to think people are listening to you, but in actual fact they are just waiting for their turn to speak.
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16-09-2010, 06:09 PM
 
RE: We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
Very well put. I was thinking about this just today. Religious people love to present a worldview that seems complete to them without realizing that their answers are really non-answers.
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16-09-2010, 08:25 PM
RE: We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
It may be old ground Nealson, but never tired. Well put. A great way to introduce yourself.

What's most important to me when it comes to this subject is the fact that we may never know the answers to many of these questions. For me, that's ok. I guess that's why I find atheism freeing. Accepting that I can't know things gives me a peace that someone bound to religion can never grasp.

Just visiting.

-SR
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16-09-2010, 08:46 PM
RE: We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
(16-09-2010 05:55 PM)Nealson Wrote:  Apparently im such a smarty pants to know so much about things that happened millions and billions of years ago yet I was not there.

Christians are known to use the "you weren't there" tactic. They always fail to mention that they weren't there when the bible was written or when the events in the supposedly happened.

Use that on them, it might give you the victory dance.
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17-09-2010, 02:40 AM
RE: We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
Exactly right.
An ancient story book written by many different men all with their own oppinions. On subjects they are not scientifically privy to, or based around laws of the time. Times change.

If someone wants to believe in these bronze age ideals then why dont they dress up in robes and put on sandals and the like? Oh no they couln't possibly do that! im sure the phrase "times have changed" would be said. Well they would be right, we dont wear robes anymore and guess what, we dont think like that anymore!

I could be correct in saying that there is a side to religion which offers help to troubles in peoples lives. Not all the preachy stuff i mean but the comforting side. But think about this for a second. You often hear of people "turning to god" or "finding jesus". These are usually people struggling with serious problems in their lives and its a last resort effort to turn themselves around. They only go to church and listen to the priests/pastors etc because its a free gig! And don't want to pay for the expensive and much deserved psychiatric counseling they need!

I used to work in Costco many years ago and a man there all of a sudden started telling everyone he was a born again christian. I talked to him at length and he said to me "If i hadn't gone to church i would have been dead" and the poor man was convinced of this.

It's easy to think people are listening to you, but in actual fact they are just waiting for their turn to speak.
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17-09-2010, 08:28 AM
 
RE: We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
The theists have the ultimate "explanation" - "(substitute the name of a deity) did it!" This explanation is no explanation of anything at all, of course, but it satisfies the non-inquisitive mind of a theist perfectly. It's an intellectual dead end, suggesting there's no need to pursue the topic further. Even if you know "who" did it, there's no explanation of the process - how it was made, or what it's made of. Knowing a watch was made by the "Yahweh Corporation" offers no insight to the watch's internal workings, or how it operates to mark time.

If someone concludes on the basis of their personal experience that becoming a christian (or anything else) turned their lives around, that might well be true. But it's not the case that this was the only option. It might have been the only option they found worked for them, but it's not the case that it automatically works for everyone. That's the part that really gets under my skin.
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17-09-2010, 11:18 AM
RE: We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
Yeah, god-of-the-gaps gets annoying really fast.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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17-09-2010, 06:14 PM
RE: We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
I knew a guy who started going to a church with a fairly well off flock. He tried to explain to me that his new found success was a result of his new found faith in jesus. I knew from experience that it would be a waste of time to explain to him that his new found success came from all the new business contacts that he made as a result of joining the church.
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18-09-2010, 06:37 AM
RE: We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
I get the feeling that a lot of people need to know that somebody loves them no matter what and that everything is going to be ok. Fair enough dont we all, but i find it quite upsetting when the people that love them the most are imaginary friends! Church is like a one stop shop for all your pyschologcal problem solutions. And in fact they are not solutions at all really.

We have evolved the abilty to think and create great things using our minds. Surely the abilty to think freely would be the most valuable abilty of all. If a higher being created such a race kowing we had the abilty to one day thik freely and end up not believing, why wold he create them in the first place. Or worse yet, punish those who did think freely and reward the ignorant? so many loopholes in a story which no longer holds and credible logic in its actions. I dont feel anger toward people who believe, i feel pity.

are there any religious folk on here who would like to give input to this?

It's easy to think people are listening to you, but in actual fact they are just waiting for their turn to speak.
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18-09-2010, 03:13 PM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2010 03:32 PM by No J..)
RE: We don't know because we haven't found out yet!
(18-09-2010 06:37 AM)Nealson Wrote:  I get the feeling that a lot of people need to know that somebody loves them no matter what and that everything is going to be ok. Fair enough dont we all, but i find it quite upsetting when the people that love them the most are imaginary friends! Church is like a one stop shop for all your pyschologcal problem solutions. And in fact they are not solutions at all really.

A good psychiatrist will help you learn to accept yourself as you are. This will make you emotionally and psychologically stronger, which will greatly help you to become a free thinker. I have experienced this.

Churches don't want you to become emotionally or psychologically stronger and the don't want you to become a free thinker because you will no longer be dependent on them and their cash flow will diminish. Remember, in Genesis, the cardinal sin was to "eat from the tree of KNOWLEDGE." In other words don't learn anything or we'll threaten you with hellfire or excommunicate you so that you don't infect the rest of the flock.
(18-09-2010 06:37 AM)Nealson Wrote:  are there any religious folk on here who would like to give input to this?

Not at the moment, that I know of. There was one Young Earth Creationist who debated us a few weeks back, but he stopped posting. Every arguement he presented was, as far as I saw, politely and adequately rebuffed.

I don't know why he quit. He may have:
-been satisfied by what he learned.
-become to busy elsewhere.
-become bored.
-become frustrated because he was making no headway in altering our thinking.
-felt his beliefs threatened.
-any combination of the above.
-none of the above, because I may have missed something.

Your arguements are all good and logical. However, they are not fully calculating the psychological and emotional drives which have a much greater influence on human behavior than logic does.
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