"We had to come from somewhere."
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09-12-2013, 01:10 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(09-12-2013 01:06 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 12:30 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Heywood,

Scientists readily admit they don't have all the answers. The singularity is an idea put forth to attempt to explain that which we don't have complete knowledge about - that's why it's part of the big bang theory. With this idea, scientist then have something that they can use as a reference point when making observations and testing. The theory is then discarded, modified, or accepted according to scientific findings. With theists, "God" is the explanation. It's accepted outright as the final answer with no further testing or evaluation. It's not the same in the least.

You are unfortunately conflating definitions of "theory", and BJ is taking advantage of that to muddy the waters here. Try to be a little more precise, it's help head off his bullshit.
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12-12-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(06-12-2013 12:27 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  I was talking to a non Christian who innocently said he thought we had to come from somewhere- he asked me what was around before the Big Bang. I understand the basics of the Big Bang. But how do you answer the question of what happened to cause the Big Bang- What was before. ?

This is a perennial favorite that inevitably causes a whole lot of arm-waving. The correct answer is that the question doesn't make any sense and consequently neither do any of the answers. The problem is that our language is evolved to talk about our world and, more recently, the universe as a whole. If used to describe anything outside of our universe it becomes unreliable and may fail entirely.

The question, "What caused the universe?" looks profound but a quick breakdown reveals that it's really asking questions like, "Where was the thing that made space?", "When did the thing that started time happen?" and "What caused causality?" Prior to the Big Bang there was no space, no time and there may well have been no causality so trying to use a language that relies on those very concepts to ask questions about it fails completely.

To even attempt an answer to this question you'd want some serious education in cosmology, likely a PhD and a good solid foundation in quantum mechanics, high-order mathematics and symbolic logic. Anything short of that and we're just tossing around terms like singularities, branes and monoblocks with little to no idea of what they mean.

The overwhelming majority of us can't be bothered to earn a PhD in Cosmology just to answer a friend's question. I recommend the cop-out of pointing him in the direction of a good book on the subject written for general consumption by a reputable cosmologist with the caveat that the whole field is a bit of a work in progress. And now you know what to get him for christmess.
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12-12-2013, 03:44 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(12-12-2013 02:51 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 12:27 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  I was talking to a non Christian who innocently said he thought we had to come from somewhere- he asked me what was around before the Big Bang. I understand the basics of the Big Bang. But how do you answer the question of what happened to cause the Big Bang- What was before. ?

This is a perennial favorite that inevitably causes a whole lot of arm-waving. The correct answer is that the question doesn't make any sense and consequently neither do any of the answers. The problem is that our language is evolved to talk about our world and, more recently, the universe as a whole. If used to describe anything outside of our universe it becomes unreliable and may fail entirely.

The question, "What caused the universe?" looks profound but a quick breakdown reveals that it's really asking questions like, "Where was the thing that made space?", "When did the thing that started time happen?" and "What caused causality?" Prior to the Big Bang there was no space, no time and there may well have been no causality so trying to use a language that relies on those very concepts to ask questions about it fails completely.

To even attempt an answer to this question you'd want some serious education in cosmology, likely a PhD and a good solid foundation in quantum mechanics, high-order mathematics and symbolic logic. Anything short of that and we're just tossing around terms like singularities, branes and monoblocks with little to no idea of what they mean.

The overwhelming majority of us can't be bothered to earn a PhD in Cosmology just to answer a friend's question. I recommend the cop-out of pointing him in the direction of a good book on the subject written for general consumption by a reputable cosmologist with the caveat that the whole field is a bit of a work in progress. And now you know what to get him for christmess.

Interesting post with some good points, but I disagree with a couple of things. We can say that prior to the big bang, there was no space in this universe. However, we don't yet have a very good understanding of what exactly existed, if anything, just before the big bang. That's why some say "singularity" while other think that idea is ludicrous and pose other theories. So we can't definitively say (at least not yet) that there was no space at all anywhere prior to the big bang. The same is true regarding time. The notion of time starting with this universe exists because we see no evidence of any connectedness to a time prior to this universe. So we have intellectually decided that speaking of time before the creation of this universe doesn't make much sense and so we speak of time starting when the universe started. That's not the same, however, as saying time itself didn't exist at all anywhere before the big bang.

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12-12-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(06-12-2013 12:27 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  I was talking to a non Christian who innocently said he thought we had to come from somewhere- he asked me what was around before the Big Bang. I understand the basics of the Big Bang. But how do you answer the question of what happened to cause the Big Bang- What was before. ?
Before Big Bang there were other Big Bangs. Matter is eternal.

English is not my native language.
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12-12-2013, 03:56 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(12-12-2013 03:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2013 12:27 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  I was talking to a non Christian who innocently said he thought we had to come from somewhere- he asked me what was around before the Big Bang. I understand the basics of the Big Bang. But how do you answer the question of what happened to cause the Big Bang- What was before. ?
Before Big Bang there were other Big Bangs. Matter is eternal.

Well, we don't know that for sure. We've got no evidence for that. Right now we're still learning about this one. That's a bold assertion to make without anything to back it up.

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12-12-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(12-12-2013 03:56 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 03:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  Before Big Bang there were other Big Bangs. Matter is eternal.

Well, we don't know that for sure. We've got no evidence for that. Right now we're still learning about this one. That's a bold assertion to make without anything to back it up.
True, I don't know for sure but this is what I believe. I also believe that our Big bang is not the last one. It will be many more and many more are happening right now.

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12-12-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
Why do you believe that? (not being sarcastic, genuinely interested)

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12-12-2013, 06:11 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(12-12-2013 04:16 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Why do you believe that? (not being sarcastic, genuinely interested)
1)because I believe that God's works have no end and because I believe words of the Prophets that there are Gods many. They have to work, too.
2)let's forget about Gods. I ask myself a question:
infinite space and only one Big Bang. really?

English is not my native language.
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12-12-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(07-12-2013 02:42 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Anyways a noun is a person, place, or thing....Nothingness is none of those. It perfectly acceptable to say nothingness is not a noun.

A noun can also be the name of a concept, such as zero. Right? Doesn't that apply here?

EDIT: Doh! Didn't finish reading the thread. Sorry.

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12-12-2013, 06:54 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(07-12-2013 12:59 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 12:55 AM)Youkay Wrote:  You are welcome to take that up with Lawrence Krauss and many other experts in the field who support his proposed view.

It is completely besides the point that I was trying to make.

Lawrence Krauss decided to define nothing a little differently so he could sell books. His nothing is really something and that is the frameworks in which quantum mechanics operates.

No he didn't. He showed that in this universe, there is no such thing as "nothing".
"Nothing" is woo-woo, cooked up by people who didn't have as much information as we do today.

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