"We had to come from somewhere."
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15-12-2013, 03:15 AM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(14-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  Really? how?

By sustaining superstitions that lead to the death or persecution of people. Some examples:

--Tanzanians with albinism are huntered, killed and butchered to sell their body parts to witchdoctors that believe albino bones are magical[1]

--The use of trial by ordeal instead of trial based on evidence and testimony to determine guilt or innocence[2]

--In Nigeria some children are accused of being witches and are consequently murdered[3]

--Islamic suicide bombers that believe they will find Paradise and 72 self-restoring celestial virgins

None of these beliefs are justifed with reference to evidence. These people just believe as you do. Also since they hold beliefs without any justification how does one go about persuading them that their beliefs are false? Like you, they too devalue the notion of justification.
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15-12-2013, 07:49 AM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(14-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't do that. I do not organize my life around my belief that there are many big bangs. That is why it doesn't hurt anybody including me.

No but you do organise your life around the Quran and there is no evidence that it is the revealed word of God. If you are prepared to just believe that Mohammed transcribed God's essays then why would you object to someone just believing that you are guilty of some crime and condemning you to prison for the next 30-years?

If mere belief without justification is inadeqaute for a civilised criminal justice system why is it perfectly adequate in relation to the authenticity of a book that purports to reveal how people are to behave and what they are to believe if they want to reach Paradise when they die?
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15-12-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(15-12-2013 07:49 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(14-12-2013 08:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't do that. I do not organize my life around my belief that there are many big bangs. That is why it doesn't hurt anybody including me.

No but you do organise your life around the Quran and there is no evidence that it is the revealed word of God. If you are prepared to just believe that Mohammed transcribed God's essays then why would you object to someone just believing that you are guilty of some crime and condemning you to prison for the next 30-years?

If mere belief without justification is inadeqaute for a civilised criminal justice system why is it perfectly adequate in relation to the authenticity of a book that purports to reveal how people are to behave and what they are to believe if they want to reach Paradise when they die?



I tried this conversation elsewhere (another forum) a few years back..... And it might be good to discuss here. Provided it won't turn into some sort of silly shouting match
I'm not good at choosing between (1) living and let live and feel perfectly fine that people hold ____________ xyz beliefs.... or (2) Beliefs are So very dangerous we should rail against them at every turn.

Anyone else think this might be good to toss about? I'd like to know how other people think/feel on this topic. I really am torn about this. Often times I run into people like KC and don't see him as ANY sort of threat - so why not just shrug and leave him alone........ and then...... I run into someone quite rabid about it all and can see the destructive nature religion can bring into people's lives.


Your thoughts?

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15-12-2013, 11:07 AM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(15-12-2013 10:59 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(15-12-2013 07:49 AM)Chippy Wrote:  No but you do organise your life around the Quran and there is no evidence that it is the revealed word of God. If you are prepared to just believe that Mohammed transcribed God's essays then why would you object to someone just believing that you are guilty of some crime and condemning you to prison for the next 30-years?

If mere belief without justification is inadeqaute for a civilised criminal justice system why is it perfectly adequate in relation to the authenticity of a book that purports to reveal how people are to behave and what they are to believe if they want to reach Paradise when they die?



I tried this conversation elsewhere (another forum) a few years back..... And it might be good to discuss here. Provided it won't turn into some sort of silly shouting match
I'm not good at choosing between (1) living and let live and feel perfectly fine that people hold ____________ xyz beliefs.... or (2) Beliefs are So very dangerous we should rail against them at every turn.

Anyone else think this might be good to toss about? I'd like to know how other people think/feel on this topic. I really am torn about this. Often times I run into people like KC and don't see him as ANY sort of threat - so why not just shrug and leave him alone........ and then...... I run into someone quite rabid about it all and can see the destructive nature religion can bring into people's lives.


Your thoughts?

I think it depends on whether they just want to hold a private belief and not force everyone else to follow their system. Most people with a fundamental belief insist that they be given special treatment (or their belief/church) if that is what they are pushing then no you push back. KC and some other people I have known irl just want to be good people and do not want religion mixing with government, to them I say live and let live.

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15-12-2013, 12:51 PM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(15-12-2013 07:49 AM)Chippy Wrote:  No but you do organise your life around the Quran and there is no evidence that it is the revealed word of God.
I do not organize my life around the book/books.

(15-12-2013 07:49 AM)Chippy Wrote:  If you are prepared to just believe that Mohammed transcribed God's essays then why would you object to someone just believing that you are guilty of some crime and condemning you to prison for the next 30-years?
"Just believe"? "just believe" is not the reason for actions.
I never claimed this.
(15-12-2013 07:49 AM)Chippy Wrote:  If mere belief without justification is inadeqaute for a civilised criminal justice system why is it perfectly adequate in relation to the authenticity of a book that purports to reveal how people are to behave and what they are to believe if they want to reach Paradise when they die?
I never act if I have just mere belief in something.
I have mere belief that there are many big bangs. So what? Do I do something with that belief? Answer is NO.
I may stop believing in this. It will not change a thing.
So, my life is not organized around my mere believes.

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16-12-2013, 12:13 AM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(15-12-2013 12:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(15-12-2013 07:49 AM)Chippy Wrote:  No but you do organise your life around the Quran and there is no evidence that it is the revealed word of God.
I do not organize my life around the book/books.

(15-12-2013 07:49 AM)Chippy Wrote:  If you are prepared to just believe that Mohammed transcribed God's essays then why would you object to someone just believing that you are guilty of some crime and condemning you to prison for the next 30-years?
"Just believe"? "just believe" is not the reason for actions.
I never claimed this.
(15-12-2013 07:49 AM)Chippy Wrote:  If mere belief without justification is inadeqaute for a civilised criminal justice system why is it perfectly adequate in relation to the authenticity of a book that purports to reveal how people are to behave and what they are to believe if they want to reach Paradise when they die?
I never act if I have just mere belief in something.
I have mere belief that there are many big bangs. So what? Do I do something with that belief? Answer is NO.
I may stop believing in this. It will not change a thing.
So, my life is not organized around my mere believes.


The point being, that you believe fantastic things on terrible or no evidence. You suck at determining truth from falsehood, at distinguishing fantasy from reality. Your belief in many big bangs seems harmless, but it is unsubstantiated belief nonetheless. If you're that credulous and inane, then it is easy to imagine how you could take up other far more harmful beliefs (like the need to murder witches), because you suck at telling fantasy from reality. That is the problem. You suffer from a severe lack of critical thinking and logic. You have crazy unjustified beliefs, and there is nothing preventing you from acquiring harmful unjustified beliefs and acting on them; that is what makes you (and others who think like you) so dangerous and scary.

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16-12-2013, 03:38 AM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(16-12-2013 12:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The point being, that you believe fantastic things on terrible or no evidence. You suck at determining truth from falsehood, at distinguishing fantasy from reality. Your belief in many big bangs seems harmless, but it is unsubstantiated belief nonetheless. If you're that credulous and inane, then it is easy to imagine how you could take up other far more harmful beliefs (like the need to murder witches), because you suck at telling fantasy from reality. That is the problem. You suffer from a severe lack of critical thinking and logic. You have crazy unjustified beliefs, and there is nothing preventing you from acquiring harmful unjustified beliefs and acting on them; that is what makes you (and others who think like you) so dangerous and scary.

There is a theoretical basis to believe in multiple big bangs.

Conformal Cyclical Cosmology
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16-12-2013, 04:03 AM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2013 04:38 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(16-12-2013 03:38 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(16-12-2013 12:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The point being, that you believe fantastic things on terrible or no evidence. You suck at determining truth from falsehood, at distinguishing fantasy from reality. Your belief in many big bangs seems harmless, but it is unsubstantiated belief nonetheless. If you're that credulous and inane, then it is easy to imagine how you could take up other far more harmful beliefs (like the need to murder witches), because you suck at telling fantasy from reality. That is the problem. You suffer from a severe lack of critical thinking and logic. You have crazy unjustified beliefs, and there is nothing preventing you from acquiring harmful unjustified beliefs and acting on them; that is what makes you (and others who think like you) so dangerous and scary.


There is a theoretical basis to believe in multiple big bangs.

Conformal Cyclical Cosmology


un·sub·stan·ti·at·ed
adjective
1. not supported or proven by evidence


Empirical tests

In 2010, Penrose and Vahe Gurzadyan published a preprint of a paper claiming that observations of the cosmic microwave background made by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe and the BOOMERanG experiment showed concentric anomalies which were consistent with the CCC hypothesis, with a low probability of the null hypothesis that the observations in question were caused by chance. However, the statistical significance of the claimed detection has since been questioned. Three groups have independently attempted to reproduce these results, but found that the detection of the concentric anomalies was not statistically significant, in the sense that such circles would appear in a proper Gaussian simulation of the anisotropy in the CMB data.



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16-12-2013, 04:17 AM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
IF there's nothing in the beginning then NOTHING would ever happen ! everything we see is just a massive chain reaction so even before big bang there must've been an external cause which caused the.. "Bang"
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16-12-2013, 04:37 AM
RE: "We had to come from somewhere."
(16-12-2013 04:17 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  IF there's nothing in the beginning then NOTHING would ever happen ! everything we see is just a massive chain reaction so even before big bang there must've been an external cause which caused the.. "Bang"

Many a physicist would disagree.

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