"We've Been Trumped!"
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23-12-2015, 02:19 PM
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
(23-12-2015 02:04 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  According to CNN they were not on a no fly list and they even got ESTA approval from Homeland Security under the visa waiver program to enter the United States. They checked in with no problems and when they got to the gate, the U.S, government fucked them in the ass.

Well that's just fucked up then. Really return the duty free stuff they bought? No refund on the tickets?

That's like heeping shit on more bullshit.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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23-12-2015, 02:19 PM
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
They can always fly to Mecca or Medina and visit some other fictional cartoonish characters. Unsure

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-12-2015, 02:23 PM
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
(23-12-2015 02:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  They can always fly to Mecca or Medina and visit some other fictional cartoonish characters. Unsure

Fuck you Bucky! Mickey Mouse is real. I met him and got his autograph when I was 6!

Weeping


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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23-12-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
(23-12-2015 01:41 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 12:31 PM)Vosur Wrote:  How is it that they are not given a refund when they did not receive the service they paid for? Being a Muslim does not constitute a violation of the terms both parties agreed to when this family purchased their plane tickets.

This is not only discrimination, it's also borderline theft if you ask me. No

(23-12-2015 12:32 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Yeah, I was kinda "meh" about the story until I read that line. That and the fact they were forced to return the duty-free items they purchased seemed rather fucked up to me.

The reasons for not refunding the ticket can be found in the Norwegian Air's General Conditions of Carriage under the Article 9: Refusal and Limitation of Carriage


a) Such measures are necessary to comply with given laws, regulations or other provisions issued by government authorities;
Government authority here is U.S. Department of Homeland Security

9.1.3 If you are refused carriage due to one or more of the circumstances described in clauses 9.1.2 (a)-(k) above, a written warning is not required, and we will cancel the Booking with no liability to refund the Ticket or for other expenses.


So...discrimination because they are muslims it is not.
Care to point out which one of these clauses they violated? What laws, regulations or provisions did they break? Consider


9.1.2 We may also refuse to carry you or your Baggage if one or more of the following has occurred or we have reason to believe it may occur:

a) Such measures are necessary to comply with given laws, regulations or other provisions issued by government authorities;

b) The carriage of you or your baggage may endanger the safety and health of other passengers and/or the crew;

c) You are under the influence of alcohol or narcotics;

d) You have interfered with flight crew members or cabin crew in the performance of their duties (as set forth in 49 U.S.C. 46504) during previous flights and we have reason to believe that such reprehensible behaviour may be repeated;

e) Your behaviour is disruptive to other passengers or crew;

f) You have refused to submit to a security check;

g) You have not paid the applicable Fare, taxes or other charges;

h) It appears that you lack valid travel documents, or intend to destroy these during the flight, or you refuse to present travel documents to the crew on demand;

i) You present a Ticket or Booking which has been obtained unlawfully or has been purchased from a source other than us or our Authorised Agents, or which has been reported lost or stolen, is a forgery, or the passenger cannot prove his or her identity in relation to the name on the Ticket or Booking;

j) You refuse to follow our safety instructions;

k) You have previously committed one of the acts or omissions described above.


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23-12-2015, 02:37 PM
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
(23-12-2015 12:01 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  UK MUSLIMS WITH DISNEYLAND PLANS: We were barred from plane due to religion

Two families, with 7 children were prevented from boarding a plane from London to Los Angeles.

Quote:The family asked if they were being stopped because they were Muslim, but were given no explanation, they said. Their bags were removed from the plane, and they were ordered to return all the duty-free goods they had purchased, and then escorted from the airport.

Quote:The families said their children are still upset at the sudden cancellation of the family holiday and that they have still not received an explanation for the incident from either UK or U.S. authorities.

Quote:They said Norwegian Airlines has told them they are not entitled to a refund.

Fuck Norwegian Airlines. I'm boycotting them from now on!!!

Sorry Erx, but Norwegian's COO Bjørn Kjos doesn't give a fuck about boicotts.
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He has mastered the art of not giving fucks.

If only you understood my language...



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23-12-2015, 02:42 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2015 02:52 PM by Slowminded.)
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
(23-12-2015 02:31 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 01:41 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  The reasons for not refunding the ticket can be found in the Norwegian Air's General Conditions of Carriage under the Article 9: Refusal and Limitation of Carriage


a) Such measures are necessary to comply with given laws, regulations or other provisions issued by government authorities;
Government authority here is U.S. Department of Homeland Security

9.1.3 If you are refused carriage due to one or more of the circumstances described in clauses 9.1.2 (a)-(k) above, a written warning is not required, and we will cancel the Booking with no liability to refund the Ticket or for other expenses.


So...discrimination because they are muslims it is not.
Care to point out which one of these clauses they violated? What laws, regulations or provisions did they break? Consider


9.1.2 We may also refuse to carry you or your Baggage if one or more of the following has occurred or we have reason to believe it may occur:

a) Such measures are necessary to comply with given laws, regulations or other provisions issued by government authorities;

b) The carriage of you or your baggage may endanger the safety and health of other passengers and/or the crew;

c) You are under the influence of alcohol or narcotics;

d) You have interfered with flight crew members or cabin crew in the performance of their duties (as set forth in 49 U.S.C. 46504) during previous flights and we have reason to believe that such reprehensible behaviour may be repeated;

e) Your behaviour is disruptive to other passengers or crew;

f) You have refused to submit to a security check;

g) You have not paid the applicable Fare, taxes or other charges;

h) It appears that you lack valid travel documents, or intend to destroy these during the flight, or you refuse to present travel documents to the crew on demand;

i) You present a Ticket or Booking which has been obtained unlawfully or has been purchased from a source other than us or our Authorised Agents, or which has been reported lost or stolen, is a forgery, or the passenger cannot prove his or her identity in relation to the name on the Ticket or Booking;

j) You refuse to follow our safety instructions;

k) You have previously committed one of the acts or omissions described above.


The one I quoted
a) a) Such measures are necessary to comply with given laws, regulations or other provisions issued by government authorities;

From the article

Quote:Norwegian Airlines released this short statement: "We can confirm that a group of passengers were denied the right to board a flight from London Gatwick to Los Angeles on Tuesday 15 December at the request of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Norwegian fully complies with requests from the border controls of each country we serve."

The ban on the flight was requested by US Homeland Security, a government agency in the country of destination of the flight. Norwegian air complied with the request and in such a case they are not liable to refund the tickets as it is stated in their terms of service.

9.1.3 If you are refused carriage due to one or more of the circumstances described in clauses 9.1.2 (a)-(k) above, a written warning is not required, and we will cancel the Booking with no liability to refund the Ticket or for other expenses.

What is unclear about this?
Maybe you have missed the fact that they were banned by U.S. Department of Homeland Security, not by Norwegian air?

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23-12-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
(23-12-2015 02:42 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 02:31 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Care to point out which one of these clauses they violated? What laws, regulations or provisions did they break? Consider


9.1.2 We may also refuse to carry you or your Baggage if one or more of the following has occurred or we have reason to believe it may occur:

a) Such measures are necessary to comply with given laws, regulations or other provisions issued by government authorities;

b) The carriage of you or your baggage may endanger the safety and health of other passengers and/or the crew;

c) You are under the influence of alcohol or narcotics;

d) You have interfered with flight crew members or cabin crew in the performance of their duties (as set forth in 49 U.S.C. 46504) during previous flights and we have reason to believe that such reprehensible behaviour may be repeated;

e) Your behaviour is disruptive to other passengers or crew;

f) You have refused to submit to a security check;

g) You have not paid the applicable Fare, taxes or other charges;

h) It appears that you lack valid travel documents, or intend to destroy these during the flight, or you refuse to present travel documents to the crew on demand;

i) You present a Ticket or Booking which has been obtained unlawfully or has been purchased from a source other than us or our Authorised Agents, or which has been reported lost or stolen, is a forgery, or the passenger cannot prove his or her identity in relation to the name on the Ticket or Booking;

j) You refuse to follow our safety instructions;

k) You have previously committed one of the acts or omissions described above.


The one I quoted
a) a) Such measures are necessary to comply with given laws, regulations or other provisions issued by government authorities;

From the article

Quote:Norwegian Airlines released this short statement: "We can confirm that a group of passengers were denied the right to board a flight from London Gatwick to Los Angeles on Tuesday 15 December at the request of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Norwegian fully complies with requests from the border controls of each country we serve."

The ban on the flight was requested by US Homeland Security, a government agency in the country of destination of the flight. Norwegian air complied with the request and in such a case they are not liable to refund the tickets as it is stated in their terms of service.

9.1.3 If you are refused carriage due to one or more of the circumstances described in clauses 9.1.2 (a)-(k) above, a written warning is not required, and we will cancel the Booking with no liability to refund the Ticket or for other expenses.

What is unclear about this?
Yes, we all know by now that it was Homeland Security that imposed this ban. What's unclear is why this ban was imposed on a seemingly innocent Muslim family. It is no less theft in my eyes if the reason why they refused to refund the cost of the tickets was based on an arbitrary decision made by a third party. Unless that government agency is able to cite a legitimate reason for their decision, there is no good reason to think that this family did anything to void their right to receive a refund. I'm not talking about it from a legal point of view (big corporations always force their customers to agree to vague terms that free themselves of most legal liabilities), but from a common sense and basic human decency point of view.

They say they were never given an explanation for what happened and knowing the US government, Homeland Security in particular, I'm more than willing to believe them.

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23-12-2015, 03:00 PM
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
Since it was the US government that revoked the ticket at the last minute, I don't see that Norwegian Air had any liability. However, were I still practicing law, I would be happy to sue the US government [Homeland Security] for a lot more than the price of the ticket. Homeland gave them permission and then revoked it at the last minute for no apparent reason. Suing the government is more fun than swimming naked with the Peterson twins and it's especially fun suing the dumb fucks at Homeland Security.
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23-12-2015, 03:27 PM
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
Okay, fine, I'll buy it. Out of the several hundred thousand Muslims that travel to the U.S each day, the Department of Homeland Security decided to block this particular family because they are Muslim.

Einstein

Go home, CNN. You're drunk.

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23-12-2015, 03:50 PM
RE: "We've Been Trumped!"
(23-12-2015 02:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(23-12-2015 02:42 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  The one I quoted
a) a) Such measures are necessary to comply with given laws, regulations or other provisions issued by government authorities;

From the article


The ban on the flight was requested by US Homeland Security, a government agency in the country of destination of the flight. Norwegian air complied with the request and in such a case they are not liable to refund the tickets as it is stated in their terms of service.

9.1.3 If you are refused carriage due to one or more of the circumstances described in clauses 9.1.2 (a)-(k) above, a written warning is not required, and we will cancel the Booking with no liability to refund the Ticket or for other expenses.

What is unclear about this?
Yes, we all know by now that it was Homeland Security that imposed this ban. What's unclear is why this ban was imposed on a seemingly innocent Muslim family. It is no less theft in my eyes if the reason why they refused to refund the cost of the tickets was based on an arbitrary decision made by a third party. Unless that government agency is able to cite a legitimate reason for their decision, there is no good reason to think that this family did anything to void their right to receive a refund. I'm not talking about it from a legal point of view (big corporations always force their customers to agree to vague terms that free themselves of most legal liabilities), but from a common sense and basic human decency point of view.

They say they were never given an explanation for what happened and knowing the US government, Homeland Security in particular, I'm more than willing to believe them.

But "why" is not the concern of the Norwegian air, and we don't know if the decision was arbitrary or not.
I don't think the Homeland Security is under the obligation to cite their reasons to a airline company, so the only thing Norwegian could do is comply with the request.
Corporations will act as corporations do, decency not high on the list of their priorities. But that goes for every corporation, boycotting Norwegian when every other company would most likely act the same is pointless.

The point here is that any family , muslim or not, would be treated the same by Norwegian air, thus it is not discrimination of muslims, but if it was a Bulgarian family it would never make the news, nor it would be considered scandalous if they didn't get the refund, nobody would give a shit.

The fact that a non muslim family is unlikely to be banned in such a manner is the issue with the Homeland Security not with the airliner.
Is it reasonable to expect from Norwegian to go " Oh, since we believe that Homeland security is full of shit and they are most likely banning you for no reason, we will go against our policy and our profit and refund your tickets"

I think not.

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