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02-05-2016, 03:18 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
(02-05-2016 03:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-05-2016 03:13 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You can demonstrate objective truths with evidence.

Not to those who believe objective truths do not exist.

Presuppositional apologetics. If your claims can only be demonstrated as true if your opponent starts off with that assumption, your arguments are not logical or evidence-based or rational. They contain literally no value.

With the exact same bullshit strategy, one could prove any fairy tale is true. For instance:

If you agree with me that aliens abducted and probed my brain, I can argue it's true and you'll believe me.

If you agree with me that I'm a god, then I'll show you we are both correct. Also, I'll be needing 10% of your income.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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02-05-2016, 03:22 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
(02-05-2016 03:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-05-2016 03:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not to those who believe objective truths do not exist.

Presuppositional apologetics. If your claims can only be demonstrated as true if your opponent starts off with that assumption, your arguments are not logical or evidence-based or rational. They contain literally no value.

With the exact same bullshit strategy, one could prove any fairy tale is true. For instance:

If you agree with me that aliens abducted and probed my brain, I can argue it's true and you'll believe me.

If you agree with me that I'm a god, then I'll show you we are both correct. Also, I'll be needing 10% of your income.

You're the one who believes the truth is subjective, not me. I'm just pointing out that it's impossible to demonstrate to you otherwise. In fact there would be no distinction between evidence that points to an objective truth, and evidence that points to just another subjective truth. In fact evidence at best would be the basis of whatever subjective truths you hold, as result what is and what is not evidence would be just as subjective, as what is and what is not true.

Whether we side with one position or the other, is entirely dependent on our presuppositions here, i.e truth is subjective, truth is objective, etc...

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-05-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
(02-05-2016 03:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-05-2016 03:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Presuppositional apologetics. If your claims can only be demonstrated as true if your opponent starts off with that assumption, your arguments are not logical or evidence-based or rational. They contain literally no value.

With the exact same bullshit strategy, one could prove any fairy tale is true. For instance:

If you agree with me that aliens abducted and probed my brain, I can argue it's true and you'll believe me.

If you agree with me that I'm a god, then I'll show you we are both correct. Also, I'll be needing 10% of your income.




You're the one who believes the truth is subjective, not me. I'm just pointing out that it's impossible to demonstrate to you otherwise. In fact there would be no distinction between evidence that points to an objective truth, and evidence that points to just another subjective truth. In fact evidence at best would be the basis of whatever subjective truths you hold, as result what is and what is not evidence would be just as subjective, as what is and what is not true.

Whether we side with one position or the other, is entirely dependent on our presuppositions here, i.e truth is subjective, truth is objective, etc...

Shifting the burden of proof? That's all you have?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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02-05-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
(02-05-2016 02:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So no one here is willing to assert the objective truth exists?

I want you to propose it and then support it with a series of incontrovertible self-evident premises and we see where we go from there. If you'd like, I'll assume the position of objective morality and you take mine.

(02-05-2016 02:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So no one here is willing to
They just want me to assert it, and prove it.




#sigh
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02-05-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
(02-05-2016 11:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-05-2016 11:36 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It may be a bad analogy but it supports nothing.
So .... you can't tell us what "objective morality" even means.

http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_m...alism.html


Quote:Every human brain assembles facts and standards for both truth and morality.
There is no universal agreement on either the methods or the substance of either. .
So you're wrong about both, and just dug your hole even deeper.

So at the very least you lack a belief in objective truth as well?

philosophybasics Wrote:Others have argued Moral Realism posits a kind of "moral fact" which is non-material and unobservable (in the way as objective material facts are observable), and therefore not accessible to the scientific method.

Demonstrate how these 'moral facts' are determined. Absent that, there is no way to determine them, therefore you can't support your claims.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-05-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
(02-05-2016 12:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-05-2016 11:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I never said I lacked a belief in "objective truth" .... THAT is NOT THE SUBJECT AT HAND ... your constant attempt to weasel out of this, just shows how bad your argument for "objective morality", or even a positing MECHANISM to judge an act "objectively".

There you go evasion number 2.

Do you believe that objective truth exists, even though what's true or not is judged subjectively?

This has precisely nothing to do with whether 'objective morality' exists. Facepalm

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-05-2016, 03:38 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
moral fact. that sounds like a two word version of "because"
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02-05-2016, 03:52 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
(02-05-2016 02:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Since truth is subjective there's no such thing as defeat. We'll just have to agree to disagree. You have your truths, and I have mine. I like daisies better you like tulips, there's no foundation to argue otherwise. I'm neither right or wrong, nor are you.

No.
Having been proven unable to provide ANY coherent definitions or evidence, you are WRONG. NOW, your attempt to equate the questions of objective morality and truth with daisy preference ? THAT'S all this meant to you.

I think not.

Every time morality and truth are considered, it happens in a human brain, who entertains the concepts in context to what that brain has learned, and calls up from memory to re-create those notions, and their meanings. You have no "truths". What you have is undefined, ignorant bullshit ... which you humor yourself, by calling it truth.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-05-2016, 03:56 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
(02-05-2016 03:52 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  NOW, your attempt to equate the questions of objective morality and truth with daisy preference ? THAT'S all this meant to you. truth.

Daisy preferences, truth, and morality according to atheists here are subjective.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-05-2016, 04:03 PM
RE: We want to hear from you at God-Talk.com
(02-05-2016 03:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-05-2016 03:52 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  NOW, your attempt to equate the questions of objective morality and truth with daisy preference ? THAT'S all this meant to you. truth.

Daisy preferences, truth, and morality according to atheists here are subjective.

I don't agree with the odd arguments that truth is subjective, largely because 'truth' hasn't been adequately defined.

There are objectively determinable facts about the world - these facts are objectively true - nothing subjective about it. That the data are processed by our minds does not make them subjective. When anyone can determine the same facts, they are objective.

There are no 'moral facts' that meet those criteria, hence morality is not objective.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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