Weather Warfare?
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24-07-2014, 08:18 AM
RE: Weather Warfare?
Thanks for the replies. I feel a bit silly now, but not completely. Tongue I really had never heard of this before, but given how long it's been around and the controversy about it too, I'm surprised I had never heard of it.

I looked into this a bit more last night. I read a few articles and watched a video about it. I finally concluded that there is definitely a bunch of unfounded fear and speculation out there. I totally dismiss that weather or minds are being controlled by this (or even impacted) or that a weather weapon is being or has been created. I believe this is truly a research facility and not a weather control development center.

However, I do think there is also legitimate cause for concern. If we understood everything about the atmosphere, we wouldn't have created a tool like this to research it. I do believe it is possible to screw up our atmosphere and in fact we have already done so somewhat with the ozone layer. I see no reason why we couldn't make mistakes with something like HAARP out of an honest lack of knowing better (although we should certainly know that we're taking the risk). But the facility is apparently be closed now anyway.

On a side note, does anyone know anything about the Global Research site from my original link? It appeared legit, but now I think it must be crap. Dodgy

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24-07-2014, 08:20 AM
RE: Weather Warfare?
(23-07-2014 10:42 PM)Logisch Wrote:  When I have eggplant for dinner, I end up with an uncanny ability to pass wind at amounts that surpass 27 knots. I go in my back yard and let loose. It affects the weather ever so slightly. But they'll never know.
So, in other words, you have a real weapon. Tongue

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24-07-2014, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2014 08:38 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Weather Warfare?
(24-07-2014 08:18 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I looked into this a bit more last night. I read a few articles and watched a video about it. I finally concluded that there is definitely a bunch of unfounded fear and speculation out there. I totally dismiss that weather or minds are being controlled by this (or even impacted) or that a weather weapon is being or has been created. I believe this is truly a research facility and not a weather control development center.

Do the sources (well; "sources") blatantly and repeatedly contradict each other? That's a good indicator of bullshit.

Is what they describe physically impossible? That's a pretty good indicator of bullshit.

Would it require the ongoing collusion and secrecy of thousands of people over several decades? Including every single person involved in developing, building, testing, and observing literally every aspect? That's also a pretty good indicator of bullshit.

See also.

(24-07-2014 08:18 AM)Impulse Wrote:  However, I do think there is also legitimate cause for concern. If we understood everything about the atmosphere, we wouldn't have created a tool like this to research it. I do believe it is possible to screw up our atmosphere and in fact we have already done so somewhat with the ozone layer. I see no reason why we couldn't make mistakes with something like HAARP out of an honest lack of knowing better (although we should certainly know that we're taking the risk). But the facility is apparently be closed now anyway.

Difference being we know exactly what was affecting the ozone layer, and how, and, perhaps most surprisingly, actually took international steps to fix the problem rather effectively.

It's just electromagnetic probing of the mid-atmosphere. Harmless. But damn useful. Even ol' Wikipedia can give you the actual story in some detail.

EDIT: I thought I should clarify. The electromagnetic beams used for ionospheric heating (oooooh big scary science-words) are magnitudes weaker than solar sources. Which is to say, anything this (or multiple similar experiments) does, the sun does more powerfully and more often.

(24-07-2014 08:18 AM)Impulse Wrote:  On a side note, does anyone know anything about the Global Research site from my original link? It appeared legit, but now I think it must be crap. Dodgy

I occasionally read it for the humour value (for all that their presence brings great shame to Montreal). Pseudo-leftist conspiracy-mongering frothing idiots. Most of what they said is flat out made up and what little isn't is horribly misinterpreted.

I and I loved 'em. Does that tell you what you need to know?

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24-07-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: Weather Warfare?
(24-07-2014 08:18 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It appeared legit, but now I think it must be crap. Dodgy

Indeed it is; it doesn't take anything more than a cursory look to see that the site is nothing more than absolute crankery. For instance, up selecting the 'Science & Medicine' section, I was immediately greeted by the headline "Fluoride: Killing Us Softly", the description of which read "This lie is called fluoridation. A process we were led to believe was a safe and effective method of protecting teeth from decay is in fact a fraud."

Let this be a lesson to all and sundry; before you use a source, take some time to investigate it to ensure it's legit.

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24-07-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: Weather Warfare?
cjlr,
Many good points. Thanks.

Regarding the Skeptic.com article, it also has some good points. However, much of it begins with "According to the HAARP website..." That tells me only what HAARP claims which may or not be factually accurate. Assuming HAARP is completely telling the truth (and I don't have any reason not to), at best that means it is not aware of any harms that come from the research. But again, since we don't know everything, it seems to me that it's somewhat risky.

(24-07-2014 08:31 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Difference being we know exactly what was affecting the ozone layer, and how, and, perhaps most surprisingly, actually took international steps to fix the problem rather effectively.
Yes, we know now. But we didn't know until after the damage was already done. We made mistakes without realizing it and then observed the unexpected consequences. Good for the international community for doing something about it and I would assume the same would happen with this if it had unintended side-effects.

(24-07-2014 08:31 AM)cjlr Wrote:  It's just electromagnetic probing of the mid-atmosphere. Harmless. But damn useful. Even ol' Wikipedia can give you the actual story in some detail.

EDIT: I thought I should clarify. The electromagnetic beams used for ionospheric heating (oooooh big scary science-words) are magnitudes weaker than solar sources. Which is to say, anything this (or multiple similar experiments) does, the sun does more powerfully and more often.
You probably know more about this subject than I, but it seems to me that what the sun does is different. The sun impacts the entire ionosphere at once (or just one side of it at a time?) whereas HAARP impacts what amounts to a pinhole proportionally. HAARP heats up and lifts just that one small area by itself. I would think the sun would lift the entire ionosphere are the entire part that it heats. HAARP therefore creates a sort of hole whereas the sun would not. The video I watched compared the hole to immersing your hand in water and when you withdraw your hand all the water returns to normal. But I'm not so sure that's a valid analogy, because the hole from HAARP could alter the particle charges in and around the hole. Whether that's any big deal I think is open to question, but I believe the current answer would have to be "not as far as we know".

(24-07-2014 08:31 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I and I loved 'em. Does that tell you what you need to know?
LOL, yes it does. Smile

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24-07-2014, 10:16 AM (This post was last modified: 24-07-2014 10:19 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Weather Warfare?
(24-07-2014 09:42 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Regarding the Skeptic.com article, it also has some good points. However, much of it begins with "According to the HAARP website..." That tells me only what HAARP claims which may or not be factually accurate. Assuming HAARP is completely telling the truth (and I don't have any reason not to), at best that means it is not aware of any harms that come from the research.

The scientists working there (from dozens of universities) publish regularly. As do their compatriots at the European and Russian facilities with similar capabilities.

This by way of saying, if there's any secrets about it, they're being covered up really goddamn well. As in, impossibly so.

(24-07-2014 09:42 AM)Impulse Wrote:  But again, since we don't know everything, it seems to me that it's somewhat risky.

That's true of literally every scientific and technological advance every made in all of human history.

(24-07-2014 09:42 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Yes, we know now. But we didn't know until after the damage was already done. We made mistakes without realizing it and then observed the unexpected consequences. Good for the international community for doing something about it and I would assume the same would happen with this if it had unintended side-effects.

These types of experiments have been performed for fifty years, and HAARP itself is now over twenty years old (and its global counterparts I mentioned).

(24-07-2014 09:42 AM)Impulse Wrote:  You probably know more about this subject than I, but it seems to me that what the sun does is different. The sun impacts the entire ionosphere at once (or just one side of it at a time?)

The ionosphere is so named because it is the part of the atmosphere ionised by solar winds. Because of the Earth's dynamics there are patterns to activity; the effect can be rather prominent.

(24-07-2014 09:42 AM)Impulse Wrote:  ... whereas HAARP impacts what amounts to a pinhole proportionally. HAARP heats up and lifts just that one small area by itself. I would think the sun would lift the entire ionosphere are the entire part that it heats. HAARP therefore creates a sort of hole whereas the sun would not. The video I watched compared the hole to immersing your hand in water and when you withdraw your hand all the water returns to normal. But I'm not so sure that's a valid analogy, because the hole from HAARP could alter the particle charges in and around the hole. Whether that's any big deal I think is open to question, but I believe the current answer would have to be "not as far as we know".

Every answer ever is implicitly followed by "as far as we know".

Everything we do, the sun does better. I wasn't just being facetious linking to the wiki page for 'aurora'; that's basically exactly what ionospheric heating does (in order to generate precise, controlled reactions, instead of the roiling chaos nature gives us to observe). By the nature of the experiment it's many, many times less energetic and less widespread.

Here is a good review article on the subject.

(24-07-2014 09:42 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(24-07-2014 08:31 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I and I loved 'em. Does that tell you what you need to know?
LOL, yes it does. Smile

Well, there you go, then.
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24-07-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: Weather Warfare?
Valid points cjlr.

I just want to clarify about this one:
(24-07-2014 10:16 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The scientists working there (from dozens of universities) publish regularly. As do their compatriots at the European and Russian facilities with similar capabilities.

This by way of saying, if there's any secrets about it, they're being covered up really goddamn well. As in, impossibly so.
I wasn't referring to secrets, but to honestly not yet having the knowledge of any harmful effects. But anyway, your point that this has been around for twenty years makes it highly unlikely that we wouldn't know by now if any existed.

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24-07-2014, 12:59 PM
Re: Weather Warfare?
This thread has a significantly disappointing lack of IandI. He created a thread on this topic in his heyday.

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24-07-2014, 01:01 PM
RE: Weather Warfare?
(24-07-2014 12:59 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  This thread has a significantly disappointing lack of IandI. He created a thread on this topic in his heyday.

*Covers ClydeLees mouth* Shhh! No saying that name....its cursed.

Please continue.
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