Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
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23-06-2017, 11:52 AM
RE: Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
(23-06-2017 08:42 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  I have an ongoing feud with a particularly objectionable creationist. TBH it's quite funny seeing him wriggle and twist and demonstrate his dishonesty but he's recently come up with a new version of "Why God Exists".

This is an excerpt from his latest nonsense:

Quote: Maths is a type of information - and information, like truth, is not purely physical.
It can require physical media to make it tangible, but while the physical media is always subject to entropy, information is not. 1+1 = 2 will always be true, it is unaffected by time, or even whether there are any humans left to do mathematical calculations.
Jesus said; Heaven and Earth may pass away, but my words will go on forever. Jesus is pointing out that truth and information are unaffected by entropy.
For example: historical truths, such as the fact that Henry VIII had six wives, will always be true. Time cannot erode or change that truth. Even if all human records of this truth were destroyed, it would never cease to be true.
As the Christian, apologist Peter Keeft has made clear, maths is entirely dependent on a positive integer, i.e. the number one. Without this positive integer, no maths is possible. Two is 2 ones, three is 3 ones, etc.
The concept of the number one also exists as a characteristic of the one, infinite, first cause. - God is one. - God embodies that positive integer (number one/first cause), essential for the operation of maths. Without the number one, there could be no number two or three, etc. etc. There could be no positive numbers, no negative numbers and no fractions.
The fact that an infinite ‘first’ cause exists, means that number one is bound to exist. In a state of eternal and infinite nothingness, there would be no information and no numbers and nothing would be ‘first’. So, like everything else, maths is made possible only by the existence of the one, infinite, first cause (God).

There are so many things wrong with this I'm at a loss to even know where to start because he seems to be mixing mathematics, information theory, entropy and goodness knows what into a jumble of verbal diarrhea. But the positive integer claim is a new one on me. I'm familiar with the ontological argument but this seems to be a rather different in that it mixes in the first cause argument.

The guy he's referring to is actually Peter Kreeft who is a xtian apologist and philosopher and NOT a mathematician.

Any thoughts? Other than it's complete nonsense.

Bearing in mind that Yahweh does his Popeye impersonation in Exodus 3:14 saying "I AM THAT I AM"

One anomaly here is that Hebrew did not have anything to distinguish between upper and lower case letters, thus the term becomes "i am that i am".

I maths i indicates the square root of -1, an imaginary number. So, claims that God is a number lead to the conclusion that God is imaginary.

“I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have inside your head.” - John Scalzi

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23-06-2017, 12:17 PM
RE: Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
(23-06-2017 08:54 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Mathematics was invented by people as a way to model the reality that we perceive. The number 1 is a concept that is meaningful to us but has no actual existence.

Now that I think about it, that is pretty similar to god. The only difference is that we're better off for having the "1" concept.

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23-06-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
(23-06-2017 08:42 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  Any thoughts? Other than it's complete nonsense.

Like a lot of Christian zealots, he believes [sic ] in the old fallback of "bullshit baffles brains" whenever they're backed into a corner by atheists. And this is what he's spewing; absurdist, fatuous bullshit.

Try asking him to explain why it is that:

[Image: infinity-symbol.ico] + 1 = [Image: infinity-symbol.ico]

You can add 1 to something, but that doesn't change the nature of that something. If we let infinity equal 1, then when he says that 1 + 1 = 2, it's not an absolute given. Ergo, it's not a given that his god exists, because two times infinity cannot exist.

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23-06-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
(23-06-2017 08:42 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  It can require physical media to make it tangible, but while the physical media is always subject to entropy, information is not. 1+1 = 2 will always be true, it is unaffected by time, or even whether there are any humans left to do mathematical calculations.

If information is not subject to entropy, then why is there such a thing like Entropy (information theory)
His his usage of "entropy" in relation to information (1+1=2) is completely wrong, showing his incompetence of the subject. Its always incompetence showing when people are talking about topics where they dont even get the basic terms right.

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23-06-2017, 12:42 PM
RE: Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
(23-06-2017 08:42 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  I have an ongoing feud with a particularly objectionable creationist. TBH it's quite funny seeing him wriggle and twist and demonstrate his dishonesty but he's recently come up with a new version of "Why God Exists".

This is an excerpt from his latest nonsense:

Quote: Maths is a type of information - and information, like truth, is not purely physical.
It can require physical media to make it tangible, but while the physical media is always subject to entropy, information is not. 1+1 = 2 will always be true, it is unaffected by time, or even whether there are any humans left to do mathematical calculations.
Jesus said; Heaven and Earth may pass away, but my words will go on forever. Jesus is pointing out that truth and information are unaffected by entropy.
For example: historical truths, such as the fact that Henry VIII had six wives, will always be true. Time cannot erode or change that truth. Even if all human records of this truth were destroyed, it would never cease to be true.
As the Christian, apologist Peter Keeft has made clear, maths is entirely dependent on a positive integer, i.e. the number one. Without this positive integer, no maths is possible. Two is 2 ones, three is 3 ones, etc.
The concept of the number one also exists as a characteristic of the one, infinite, first cause. - God is one. - God embodies that positive integer (number one/first cause), essential for the operation of maths. Without the number one, there could be no number two or three, etc. etc. There could be no positive numbers, no negative numbers and no fractions.
The fact that an infinite ‘first’ cause exists, means that number one is bound to exist. In a state of eternal and infinite nothingness, there would be no information and no numbers and nothing would be ‘first’. So, like everything else, maths is made possible only by the existence of the one, infinite, first cause (God).

There are so many things wrong with this I'm at a loss to even know where to start because he seems to be mixing mathematics, information theory, entropy and goodness knows what into a jumble of verbal diarrhea. But the positive integer claim is a new one on me. I'm familiar with the ontological argument but this seems to be a rather different in that it mixes in the first cause argument.

The guy he's referring to is actually Peter Kreeft who is a xtian apologist and philosopher and NOT a mathematician.

Any thoughts? Other than it's complete nonsense.

0.5 + 0.5 = 1
Checkmate Jebus.

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23-06-2017, 01:09 PM
RE: Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
1 + 1 = 2. Therefore Flying Spaghetti Monster.

It's a big non sequitur. If for a fact, God does not exist, 1 + 1 still = 2. Descartes claimed all metaphysical necessities such as 1 + 1 = 2 are set by God. If so no numbers really mean anything. If the Xian claims no, Descartes is wrong, then where do all these metaphysical necessities come from? They are outside and beyond God and then, do we need God to explain anything?

If God does not exist, 1 + 1 = 2. How does all that work?

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23-06-2017, 10:19 PM
RE: Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
(23-06-2017 11:46 AM)unsapien Wrote:  Math is just another type of language, and like any other, it describes the reality we inhabit just as English or any other language.

The big difference is in the precision in which it is "spoken", that precision makes it far superior to any other language in helping scientists & engineers "talk" to each other to create new things and make more discoveries.

I suppose you could use math to describe fanciful ideas that have no connection to reality, just like you can write a book about wizards & witches, but unless you can tie the equations to real observations it's just "fantasy math".

Didn't Einstein add a value to one of his equations (I think he called it "ether") to "account" for some results that he didn't want because he didn't like the implications it had for the nature of the universe? That would be like "Einstein's math dragon", and he later had to remove it admitting it was wrong. I'm gonna have to google it again, it's been so long since I've read his theories.

Anyway... god must be observed to exist first
...then we can build the math that would be able to describe how it relates to the rest of reality.

You absolutely can devise mathematics with no known relation to reality. I spent time studying some like this. It only needs to be internally consistent. Sometimes people do find a use for such maths, many years later. Most of the time, people want maths that does something immediately, which is understandable.

I don't know whether theists like the one in question actually can't tell the difference between the real and the abstract, or are deliberately conflating them to muddy the waters. I used to "debate" someone before who always jumped straight into this conflation no matter how many times I explained it. If someone really can't tell the difference, it shows how magical beliefs can fuck with your critical thinking skills.

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23-06-2017, 10:42 PM
RE: Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
God does in fact have a lot in common with mathematics in general. They are both tools that can be used to try and model reality. It's just that one is rather more sophisticated than the other. One has predictive power, giving a practical purpose, and can be honed and improved through testing and new discoveries. The other is just a vague untestable statement of cause and effect.

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23-06-2017, 10:46 PM
RE: Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
When people start resorting to arguments as stupid as the one in the OP, you've got 'em on the ropes. Keep punching.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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24-06-2017, 01:33 AM
Weird argument - positive integer proves god?
Thanks to all for the responses. The theist making such nonsensical claims is one whose knowledge of science is stunningly deficient but exhibits classic Dunning Kruger.

I'd never come across the positive integer nonsense before.


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