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16-06-2013, 07:51 AM
RE: Welcome to China.
Can I just say, I told you'll so.

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16-06-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 03:50 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 03:21 PM)BryanS Wrote:  But would you truthfully say every single principle is followed in China today? If any are not, do you think they should be?

You are still obfuscating some. It's a bit of a straw man you have built suggesting that I claimed every single principle was violated in every way. I don't know enough about China to be able to make such a statement. But locking up someone for writing down these principles has me wonder why it was necessary to do that. What was so threatening about these principles. Someone in the Communist party fears this document for some reason. It is only reasonable to conclude that the Communist Party of China disagrees with at least some of these principles.

You can continue on the "fear that / threatening" theory all you want, but it isn't helping. Let be practical, is the "they fear that" good ? If not, how to change that ? How to practically implement this change ?

It is relatively easier to continue the "fear that / threatening" argument and feel good about it. And it's relatively safe just talking about that. Because when people get into the "action time", there are risks of being the target of the law both in China and in US.

"But would you truthfully say every single principle is followed in China today? If any are not, do you think they should be?"

No, not every principle. And I don't think every principle should be followed.

OK, here, weigh these two: "what's the idea, what's the distance, what are the approaches", "what's his stance, what's his explanation, what's my counterattack". We are not simply seeking good feelings in debates, are we ?

==============================

I just realized that I was talking about "Liu's plans and ideas are impractical. It is unethical for him to call on others to sacrifice for this lame stuff. He did nothing good to the people except making himself a celebrity and tons of money. He could have done something ACTUALLY good by suing the government for illegal detention, and he had chosen not to do it. Shameful and despicable." The key is all about specific and practical plans.

You and others were talking about "Liu has every right to ask for better political structure. He can write, share and discuss all the Charters he want, as long as he doesn't talk about specific plans of overthrowing the government" The key is to avoid specific plans, whether practical or not is irrelevant.

There is no wonder we were in the opposite direction. It amazes me that we are still talking to each other. OK, I think I am out of the maze now.


More slippery obfuscation. You cannot point out a single thing in the Chapter 8 document you linked to that is problematic, yet you claim this document as a basis for your argument that Liu is advocating overthrowing the Chinese government, that he has described a specific plan for how to overthrow the government, and this document in your mind justifies his imprisonment.

I think you understand just how unsound your arguments are because you cannot cite one specific thing this Liu guy has said, not one quote, not one specific argument he made, that you find problematic. You assume your argument is self evident. But unless you haven't noticed something, this forum likes evidence. Atheists in general embrace empiricism, and you cannot cite anything specific in your arguments. Where is your evidence? It should be easy to find a specific claim or argument that Liu has made which advocates overthrowing the government. You linked to his Chapter 8 principle paper as if to suggest the evidence would be there, but I find no such evidence. I ask you to point out what is problematic, and you flatly refuse to answer.

By now, I am thoroughly convinced your political beliefs have become your unquestioned faith. You say you came to atheism by free choice--well, I think you embrace whatever your political ideology demands you to. This thread is perfect evidence for all to browse and see your faith based politics. If you cannot articulate specific justifying evidence, but hold to a belief anyway, that is the definition of faith.
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16-06-2013, 10:07 AM
RE: Welcome to China.
BryanS, what's your reply if I say "you don't understand my reply. I am done with you" ?

Give me some powerful words so that I can add to my reply to Chas.

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16-06-2013, 10:11 AM
RE: Welcome to China.
(16-06-2013 10:07 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  BryanS, what's your reply if I say "you don't understand my reply. I am done with you" ?

Give me some powerful words so that I can add to my reply to Chas.

That's your call. But as far as your argument stands right now, it remains unconvincing to anyone reading this thread because it is not backed up with specific evidence. That much is clear to more than just me or Chas. By any objective evaluation of rhetoric and argument, you have not made your case.
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16-06-2013, 10:30 AM
RE: Welcome to China.
Then you guys keep this discussion going. Have fun. What else could you possibly want to accomplish in this thread ? Legal support for Liu ? Financial support for Liu ? Not likely. And that is it.

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16-06-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: Welcome to China.
(16-06-2013 10:30 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Then you guys keep this discussion going. Have fun. What else could you possibly want to accomplish in this thread ? Legal support for Liu ? Financial support for Liu ? Not likely. And that is it.

Thank you for conceding defeat. Very gracious of you. Drinking Beverage
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16-06-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: Welcome to China.
Liu has some cheap new supporters.

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16-06-2013, 12:09 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(16-06-2013 10:40 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Liu has some cheap new supporters.

I hold Liu in the highest regards. What this true humanist has done in the face of personal sacrifice and persecution is admirable! That you don't think so says volumes about you and your ilk.

Generations from now when the Chinese people finally overcome the current regime the memory of people like Liu will be honored and those who persecuted him will be disgraced and forgotten.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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16-06-2013, 01:19 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
What have you done to support him, legally or financially ?

If none, is any legal or financial support under planning already ?

If none, any thing on the mind more valuable than cheap forum talk ?

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16-06-2013, 01:34 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(16-06-2013 01:19 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  What have you done to support him, legally or financially ?

If none, is any legal or financial support under planning already ?

If none, any thing on the mind more valuable than cheap forum talk ?

I have petitioned my government to support him on my behalf, including my representative in the House, the Senate and the President. While this is not a financial assistance hopefully these will encourage my government to more open support.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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