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15-06-2013, 10:49 AM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2013 11:27 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Welcome to China.
(14-06-2013 11:04 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  As long as you are not brandishing a weapon you will probably just be ignored.

Frankly, I feel a little sad.

Do you realized it was included in this statement that despite all the efforts some people have made to come to demonstrate in front of the White House ... they will probably just be ignored. And I am thinking about the rally of atheists in DC (the Rally of Ration?).

I don't want to pick up a fight. I am ready for one, but don't really want one. Here I just want to say that I feel a little sad.

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15-06-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 10:49 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(14-06-2013 11:04 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  As long as you are not brandishing a weapon you will probably just be ignored.

Frankly, I feel a little sad.

Do you realized it was included in this statement that despite all the efforts some people have made to come to demonstrate in front of the White House ... they will probably just be ignored. And I am thinking about the rally of atheist in DC (the Rally of Ration?).

I don't want to pick up a fight. I am ready for one, but don't really want one. Here I just want to say that I feel a little sad.

Having a right to speak does not mean you have a right to make others listen. The reason governments that are oppressive imprison people for speech is they are afraid of the message resonating with their citizens. Often it is the case that the ideas don't have merit. If the ideas don't have merit, people just tune them out and the speaker's thirst to tilt at windmills is quenched some. That can be a benefit to allowing more speech.

As an example of this, there was a famous trial in the US where the ACLU defended these Nazi jackass's right to demonstrate and express their opinion when the government refused to allow them to march. Little has been done in the US to tell these hate groups that they cannot express their view except to enforce laws that prohibit incitement to violence--which has to be a specific threat to cause another harm. These hate groups still exist, but nobody but the tiniest of fringe of idiots listen to them. People who espouse stupid ideas can be subjected to criticism, and if the ideas are particularly bad, public ridicule does wonders to turn people away.

If this Liu guy has written his own constitution--and if it is so awful as you intimate it to be--then why not show it to everyone and prove that case? People would stop listening to him if his ideas really were that bad. Shutting Liu up makes it look like the Chinese government fears his ideas have merit.
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15-06-2013, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2013 12:51 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 11:40 AM)BryanS Wrote:  If this Liu guy has written his own constitution--and if it is so awful as you intimate it to be--then why not show it to everyone and prove that case? People would stop listening to him if his ideas really were that bad. Shutting Liu up makes it look like the Chinese government fears his ideas have merit.

Liu has not been completely shut up -- you can read his Charter 08 here.

Interestingly I am the first person in this thread to ever show the text of the Charter 08 (under your suggestion).

Is it awful ? I don't know. I am no Constitution expert. Neither is this Nobel Peace Prize Winner Liu guy. He and others made this Charter 08 in the image of Charter 77. (I guess some people will say that "Look ! Another example of China' violation of copyright ! Your country is a huge criminal group." Haha, no, they won't kindly do so.)

Let me present the story of Liu in this playful way, what do you think about it :

You can suppose that I am an American citizen living in DC.

I say Obama is bad. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad and want an impeachment. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want an impeachment, and ask people on the streets to sign this petition. [ no big deal. free speech. legal right.]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system. [ a little worrying. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, and have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies. [ a little disturbing. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies, and start to receive foreign funds. [ somewhat disturbing. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies, keep receiving foreign funds, and gather some other writers to build up the momentum and imply that I should be the leader and the keeper of the funds. [ getting really disturbing. ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities". [ potential "terrorist". ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities", and I tell Chinese and Russian news agencies that I am under house arrest by the Obama Administration in my pursuit for a better life for the American people. [ potential "big terrorist". ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities", I tell Chinese and Russian news agencies that I am under house arrest by the Obama Administration in my pursuit for a better life for the American people, and I recruit more writers using foreign funds, we aggressively advocate my Constitution 13 for USA, we write articles in USA to tell the people to "peaceful" turn the current political system up side down and implement the single-party system, we write articles and send them to China and Russia to ask for support of political reform. [ intolerable potential "big terrorist". ]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody.]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. I am given a Nobel Peace Prize, and I keep receiving large pay checks from a Chinese foundation supporting American dissidents. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody. getting increasingly annoying. ]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. I am given a Nobel Peace Prize, and I keep receiving large pay checks from a Chinese foundation supporting American dissidents. They regularly arrange news about me on Chinese and Russian newspapers and establish me as a model against the tyrannic US government. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody. getting really annoying. ]

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15-06-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
Let me present the story of Liu in this playful way, what do you think about it :

You can suppose that I am an American citizen living in DC.

I say Obama is bad. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad and want an impeachment. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want an impeachment, and ask people on the streets to sign this petition. [ no big deal. free speech. legal right.]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system. [ a Free speech ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, and have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies. [ free speech ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies, and start to receive foreign funds.[ Welcome to citizens United: money = speech ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies, keep receiving foreign funds, and gather some other writers to build up the momentum and imply that I should be the leader and the keeper of the funds. [ At this point you would have to have some serious support but you are still well within your rights. http://www.cpusa.org/ ]

Everything after this is fantasy and would not happen. We actually have a communist party of america that I just linked to. This is your fundamental misunderstanding of American politics.

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities". [ potential "terrorist". ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities", and I tell Chinese and Russian news agencies that I am under house arrest by the Obama Administration in my pursuit for a better life for the American people. [ potential "big terrorist". ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities", I tell Chinese and Russian news agencies that I am under house arrest by the Obama Administration in my pursuit for a better life for the American people, and I recruit more writers using foreign funds, we aggressively advocate my Constitution 13 for USA, we write articles in USA to tell the people to "peaceful" turn the current political system up side down and implement the single-party system, we write articles and send them to China and Russia to ask for support of political reform. [ intolerable potential "big terrorist". ]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody.]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. I am given a Nobel Peace Prize, and I keep receiving large pay checks from a Chinese foundation supporting American dissidents. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody. getting increasingly annoying. ]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. I am given a Nobel Peace Prize, and I keep receiving large pay checks from a Chinese foundation supporting American dissidents. They regularly arrange news about me on Chinese and Russian newspapers and establish me as a model against the tyrannic US government. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody. getting increasingly annoying. ]
[/quote]

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-06-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 12:37 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 11:40 AM)BryanS Wrote:  If this Liu guy has written his own constitution--and if it is so awful as you intimate it to be--then why not show it to everyone and prove that case? People would stop listening to him if his ideas really were that bad. Shutting Liu up makes it look like the Chinese government fears his ideas have merit.

Liu has not been completely shut up -- you can read his Charter 08 here.

Interestingly I am the first person in this thread to ever show the text of the Charter 08 (under your suggestion).

Is it awful ? I don't know. I am no Constitution expert. Neither is this Nobel Peace Prize Winner Liu guy. He and others made this Charter 08 in the image of Charter 77. (I guess some people will say that "Look ! Another example of China' violation of copyright ! Your country is a huge criminal group." Haha, no, they won't kindly do so.)

Let me present the story of Liu in this playful way, what do you think about it :

You can suppose that I am an American citizen living in DC.

I say Obama is bad. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad and want an impeachment. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want an impeachment, and ask people on the streets to sign this petition. [ no big deal. free speech. legal right.]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system. [ a little worrying. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, and have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies. [ a little disturbing. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies, and start to receive foreign funds. [ somewhat disturbing. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies, keep receiving foreign funds, and gather some other writers to build up the momentum and imply that I should be the leader and the keeper of the funds. [ getting really disturbing. ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities". [ potential "terrorist". ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities", and I tell Chinese and Russian news agencies that I am under house arrest by the Obama Administration in my pursuit for a better life for the American people. [ potential "big terrorist". ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities", I tell Chinese and Russian news agencies that I am under house arrest by the Obama Administration in my pursuit for a better life for the American people, and I recruit more writers using foreign funds, we aggressively advocate my Constitution 13 for USA, we write articles in USA to tell the people to "peaceful" turn the current political system up side down and implement the single-party system, we write articles and send them to China and Russia to ask for support of political reform. [ intolerable potential "big terrorist". ]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody.]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. I am given a Nobel Peace Prize, and I keep receiving large pay checks from a Chinese foundation supporting American dissidents. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody. getting increasingly annoying. ]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. I am given a Nobel Peace Prize, and I keep receiving large pay checks from a Chinese foundation supporting American dissidents. They regularly arrange news about me on Chinese and Russian newspapers and establish me as a model against the tyrannic US government. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody. getting really annoying. ]

I didn't mean to *like* this, but there doesn't seem a way to fix that.

If you're not doing anything covert, like amassing weapons and stock-piling, it's unlikely in this country it would go beyond "watching"

There are groups of people who have done most of what wrote about. They've never been, to my knowledge arrested and tried. Yes they have recieved money from overseas.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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15-06-2013, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2013 01:25 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 12:55 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Everything after this is fantasy and would not happen. We actually have a communist party of america that I just linked to. This is your fundamental misunderstanding of American politics.

Do you think being in an American communist party and receiving Chinese and Russian funds are the same thing ? If you do, you are seriously mistaken.

In the early 1950s, Mr. Joseph Raymond McCarthy would respectfully disagree with you and make sure you live very happily in jail, if you were receiving commie money.

Judging from all these "enemy talks" you can listen to in the Senate and Congress of USA today. If you were receiving commie money (not regular business money) in high-profile, you would understand you have fundamentally misunderstood the American politics.

But hey, I am not a conspiracy theory lover. If you don't agree, I will continue reading online reports about the recent Chinese espionage cases.

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15-06-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 09:08 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 05:53 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  The observation was made that a Nobel prize winner was incarcerated and his wife is under house arrest. Why do you take this personally? Why are you shooting the messenger?

observation -- is it ? it all started with a news link earmuffs provided. who observed it ? what is the credibility of the observer ?

incarcerated -- is it ? please refer to my post.

house arrest -- is it ? please refer to my post.

personally -- is it ? I thought when Chas and earmuffs behaved in this way, it was called "confrontational", opposite of "cowardly evading".

shooting -- is it ? By being "confrontational" and "frank" ?

the messenger -- is it ? discussing an convicted case 4 years ago, instead of discussing what happens right now ? OK, I admit I a little overly addressed the Snowden problem.

You see, I think you argument is shooting at me personally, somewhat. What do you think about it ?

==============================================================

Besides, you said this in the beginning part of this thread, "See? She's been allowed to live. What more can you ask for?"

I think you are very prejudiced to have said so. And all your other posts in this thread lack a decent amount of objectivity. Am I correct ?

I read the Reuters article, I commented on the Reuters article. You decided it was a personal attack. I think you need to stop equating a comment on a news piece having to do with China and a direct ad hominem attack on you.

As for the actual piece I am under no obligation to you to verify its accuracy. If it turns out that the piece is not factual then it will be rebutted by other independent news sources. I do not doubt the accuracy of the reporting for two reasons. 1) Reuters is a very credible source based on their history of news reporting and 2) China's past record on arresting and detaining human rights activists; see list below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents

I think you whine too much and could do with thicker skin. Now THAT is a personal observation about you. If you want to bitch about something bitch about me saying that. Sadcryface2 Laughat

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-06-2013, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2013 01:32 PM by kim.)
RE: Welcome to China.
(14-06-2013 10:59 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  For the third time, I ask you:

WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF I CALL FOR THE OVERTHROWN OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION IN THE STREETS OF WASHINGTON?

Ha - I don't know if anyone has answered this - the thread has become too long and involved for me to want to go beyond page 2 or 3.

So, question answered:
There is a continual call for the overthrow of the Obama administration in the streets of Washington.

Hell, since about the 5th one (of 44), there is practically no administration that hasn't witnessed a call for it to be overthrown! Even our most "popular" presidents have had calls for their administrations to be overthrown.

To uphold the right to dissent is paramount to freedom itself. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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15-06-2013, 01:20 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 01:14 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 12:55 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Everything after this is fantasy and would not happen. We actually have a communist party of america that I just linked to. This is your fundamental misunderstanding of American politics.

Do you think being in an American communist party and receiving Chinese and Russian funds are the same thing ? If you do, you are seriously mistaken.

In the early 1950s, Mr. Joseph Raymond McCarthy would respectfully disagree with you and make sure you live very happily in jail, if you were receiving commie money.

Judging from you can listen to all these "enemy talk" in the Senate and Congress of USA today. If you were receiving commie money (not regular business money) in high-profile, you would understand you have fundamentally misunderstood the American politics.

But hey, I am not a conspiracy theory lover. If you don't agree, I will continue reading online reports about the recent Chinese espionage cases.

Joe McCarthy was a fool a liar and was drummed out of the Senate for his actions. What he did was against the very fabric of what we stand for and is one of the darkest spots in history and is remember as such. We don't worship him like you do with your monster Mao.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-06-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 01:03 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I didn't mean to *like* this, but there doesn't seem a way to fix that.

It was a surprise for me. I liked it.

(15-06-2013 01:03 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  If you're not doing anything covert, like amassing weapons and stock-piling, it's unlikely in this country it would go beyond "watching"

There are groups of people who have done most of what wrote about. They've never been, to my knowledge arrested and tried. Yes they have received money from overseas.

OK, I understand.

And I do believe that there's a clear line between legally acquiring weapons and ammunition in large scales with foreign funds, and amassing weapons and stock-piling, am I right ?

And things have turned very differently since the days of Joseph Raymond McCarthy.

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