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15-06-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 01:18 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I read the Reuters article, I commented on the Reuters article. You decided it was a personal attack. I think you need to stop equating a comment on a news piece having to do with China and a direct ad hominem attack on you.

As for the actual piece I am under no obligation to you to verify its accuracy. If it turns out that the piece is not factual then it will be rebutted by other independent news sources. I do not doubt the accuracy of the reporting for two reasons. 1) Reuters is a very credible source based on their history of news reporting and 2) China's past record on arresting and detaining human rights activists; see list below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents

I think you whine too much and could do with thicker skin. Now THAT is a personal observation about you. If you want to bitch about something bitch about me saying that. Sadcryface2 Laughat

You are prejudiced.

And please don't equate this comment on your previous post and a direct ad hominem attack on you.

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15-06-2013, 01:37 PM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2013 02:03 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 01:19 PM)kim Wrote:  Ha - I don't know if anyone has answered this - the thread has become too long and involved for me to want to go beyond page 2 or 3.

So, question answered:
There is a continual call for the overthrow of the Obama administration in the streets of Washington.

Hell, since about the 5th one (of 44), there is practically no administration that hasn't witnessed a call for it to be overthrown! Even our most "popular" presidents have had calls for their administrations to be overthrown.

To uphold the right to dissent is paramount to freedom itself. Drinking Beverage

Good to know.

And I will say that Chas has answered it: Call for impeachment, of course legally allowed.

But what if you want to replace whole idea of two-party president system with a carbinet system and have a online system to let everybody directly decide the tax rate the Wall Street need to conform to ?

I think this is going to be interesting.

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15-06-2013, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2013 02:02 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 01:20 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 01:14 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Do you think being in an American communist party and receiving Chinese and Russian funds are the same thing ? If you do, you are seriously mistaken.

In the early 1950s, Mr. Joseph Raymond McCarthy would respectfully disagree with you and make sure you live very happily in jail, if you were receiving commie money.

Judging from you can listen to all these "enemy talk" in the Senate and Congress of USA today. If you were receiving commie money (not regular business money) in high-profile, you would understand you have fundamentally misunderstood the American politics.

But hey, I am not a conspiracy theory lover. If you don't agree, I will continue reading online reports about the recent Chinese espionage cases.

Joe McCarthy was a fool a liar and was drummed out of the Senate for his actions. What he did was against the very fabric of what we stand for and is one of the darkest spots in history and is remember as such. We don't worship him like you do with your monster Mao.

Where did you get idea to put "worship" and "him (Joe McCarthy)" together.

I didn't say anything about that.

Do you subconsciously think that some of your people are still "worshiping" "him (Joe McCarthy)" ?

=============================================

And what's the last time I said the word "Mao" ? You can search my posts.

When you have done so, you will find yourself severely prejudiced to have said "you do (worship) with your Evil_monster Mao"

=============================================

It's really interesting for me to get to know you.

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15-06-2013, 01:49 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 01:23 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 01:03 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I didn't mean to *like* this, but there doesn't seem a way to fix that.

It was a surprise for me. I liked it.

(15-06-2013 01:03 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  If you're not doing anything covert, like amassing weapons and stock-piling, it's unlikely in this country it would go beyond "watching"

There are groups of people who have done most of what wrote about. They've never been, to my knowledge arrested and tried. Yes they have received money from overseas.

OK, I understand.

And I do believe that there's a clear line between legally acquiring weapons and ammunition in large scales with foreign funds, and amassing weapons and stock-piling, am I right ?

And things have turned very differently since the days of Joseph Raymond McCarthy.

Anything good joesph McCarthy might have done in his career was seriously and rightfully so, over-shadowed by his witch-hunt during the 1950s. He was no hero and what he did is forever a black spot on our history. it is something we remember to hopefully never repeat.

Even today I believe we need to be careful when we accuse a mosque of being a training facility for terrorists, that we don't go down the path where everyone is doing something wrong. McCarthy's stranglehold was the fear, which in my opinion makes people irrational.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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15-06-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 01:49 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
Anything good joesph McCarthy might have done in his career was seriously and rightfully so, over-shadowed by his witch-hunt during the 1950s. He was no hero and what he did is forever a black spot on our history. it is something we remember to hopefully never repeat.

Even today I believe we need to be careful when we accuse a mosque of being a training facility for terrorists, that we don't go down the path where everyone is doing something wrong. McCarthy's stranglehold was the fear, which in my opinion makes people irrational.

Judging from how Fox News handled the Boston Bombing case, I think you are very justified to say that you people need to be careful.

And yes, fear, a good tool that is never going to be out of fashion, used either out of goodwill or malevolence.

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15-06-2013, 02:00 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 12:37 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 11:40 AM)BryanS Wrote:  If this Liu guy has written his own constitution--and if it is so awful as you intimate it to be--then why not show it to everyone and prove that case? People would stop listening to him if his ideas really were that bad. Shutting Liu up makes it look like the Chinese government fears his ideas have merit.

Liu has not been completely shut up -- you can read his Charter 08 here.

Interestingly I am the first person in this thread to ever show the text of the Charter 08 (under your suggestion).

Is it awful ? I don't know. I am no Constitution expert. Neither is this Nobel Peace Prize Winner Liu guy. He and others made this Charter 08 in the image of Charter 77. (I guess some people will say that "Look ! Another example of China' violation of copyright ! Your country is a huge criminal group." Haha, no, they won't kindly do so.)

Let me present the story of Liu in this playful way, what do you think about it :

You can suppose that I am an American citizen living in DC.

I say Obama is bad. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad and want an impeachment. [ no big deal. free speech. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want an impeachment, and ask people on the streets to sign this petition. [ no big deal. free speech. legal right.]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system. [ a little worrying. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, and have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies. [ a little disturbing. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies, and start to receive foreign funds. [ somewhat disturbing. ]

I say the Obama administration is bad, want to turn the two-party system into a single-party system, have written my Constitution 13 for USA in the image of the Chinese Constitution, put it on my website and kept contacting Chinese and Russian news agencies, keep receiving foreign funds, and gather some other writers to build up the momentum and imply that I should be the leader and the keeper of the funds. [ getting really disturbing. ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities". [ potential "terrorist". ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities", and I tell Chinese and Russian news agencies that I am under house arrest by the Obama Administration in my pursuit for a better life for the American people. [ potential "big terrorist". ]

I am told by the FBI that I am under their surveillance and better not to get involved in "terrorist activities", I tell Chinese and Russian news agencies that I am under house arrest by the Obama Administration in my pursuit for a better life for the American people, and I recruit more writers using foreign funds, we aggressively advocate my Constitution 13 for USA, we write articles in USA to tell the people to "peaceful" turn the current political system up side down and implement the single-party system, we write articles and send them to China and Russia to ask for support of political reform. [ intolerable potential "big terrorist". ]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody.]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. I am given a Nobel Peace Prize, and I keep receiving large pay checks from a Chinese foundation supporting American dissidents. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody. getting increasingly annoying. ]

I am arrested, charged with the accusations of treason, espionage, planning terrorist attack and subversion of the Obama administration, convicted and tossed into jail to serve 11 years. I am given a Nobel Peace Prize, and I keep receiving large pay checks from a Chinese foundation supporting American dissidents. They regularly arrange news about me on Chinese and Russian newspapers and establish me as a model against the tyrannic US government. [ convicted criminal. trouble-maker in custody. getting really annoying. ]

Your analogy fails at least in part when you actually read at the link you posted what was written. For one, it is not a constitution in and of itself. It is a statement of principles of liberty that rather reads like the US Declaration of Independence with one very significant difference. That difference is that the text explicitly says that the current constitution should be amended to be consistent with the principles he lays out. There's a lot to like in his statement of principles. I can see why he has been admired by those who support human rights and freedom.

What's not to like about:
-human rights
-separation of government powers
-democracy
-judicial independence
-military and government employees loyal to the state and constitution instead of a party
-election of officials
-discontinue favoritism of cities over rural
-freedom of association, assembly, expression, religion
-public education
-property rights
-fiscal reforms with changes that have consent of the people
-social security programs
-environmental programs
-federalism, as in protect freedoms in Hong Kong and Macau while seeking peaceful resolution of the Taiwan issue
-release political prisoners and pay reparations for their imprisonment

Which of his principles do you disagree with and why?
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15-06-2013, 02:08 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 01:37 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Good to know.

And I will say that Chas has answered it: Call for impeachment, of course legally allowed.

But what if you want to replace whole idea of two-party system and have a online system to let everybody directly decide the tax rate the Wall Street need to conform to ?

I think this is going to be interesting.

There is a mechanism to do precisely just that if the American people choose to do it. We have amended our constitution numerous times according to the procedure the Constitution has set out to allow for changes.

There is nothing wrong in our system with advocating changing the Constitution. Most people won't buy into radical changes, but we have made quite a lot of significant changes over the years. We re-wrote the constitution to get rid of slavery, we changed how Senators are chosen to direct election from the previous system where Senators were appointed by state legislatures. We banned alcohol, then unbanned it after we realized how stupid that was. We introduced term limits on presidents so they couldn't hold office for life.

If a dissident advocated converting the US government to communism through amending our constitution, I doubt they'd get very far, but they certainly would not be arrested for advocating that.
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15-06-2013, 02:18 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 02:00 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Which of his principles do you disagree with and why?

Your question is a total deviation from the essence of this discussion. And I am not going to answer it. Because,

you or someone else should have listed: [1] where it is different from the current practices, [2] why the change, [3] what the benefits are, [4] how to practically achieve this.

It's really cheap to make a list of principles and ask what and why others will disagree.

Being cheap is the reason why both Charter 77 and Charter 08 have failed.

There is a need to replace the obsession with ideologies with a practical mind that can generate plausible solutions.

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15-06-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 01:37 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  But what if you want to replace whole idea of two-party system and have a online system to let everybody directly decide the tax rate the Wall Street need to conform to ?

I don't know about the impracticalities of an "online system" but we've certainly taken change to the streets... there is precedence for such. An example might be the late 60s, with 18 year olds being drafted into a war by a president they couldn't even vote for or against. Young people burned their draft cards in the streets and there was considerable mayhem but as a result, the voting age was lowered to 18. This changed not just age of voters but the direction of the war. It could be argued that it very possibly resulted in Nixon's resignation in the shadow of impending indictment... however, his own lawlessness was chiefly responsible for much of his undoing; he was an Imperial fucktard. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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15-06-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Welcome to China.
(15-06-2013 02:18 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(15-06-2013 02:00 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Which of his principles do you disagree with and why?

Your question is a total deviation from the essence of this discussion. And I am not going to answer it. Because,

you or someone else should have listed: [1] where it is different from the current practices, [2] why the change, [3] what the benefits are, [4] how to practically achieve this.

It's really cheap to make a list of principles and ask what and why others will disagree.

Being cheap is the reason why both Charter 77 and Charter 08 have failed.

There is a need to replace the obsession with ideologies with a practical mind that can generate plausible solutions.

Hey Pot, Kettle's calling. He's on line 2.

It's painfully transparent that you are the one dodging, not me.

This is precisely the topic of discussion. I know you're not going to answer my question--I expected you wouldn't, thus making my point. This kind of discussion about Liu's statement of principles is precisely the kind of debate and discussion the Communist party in China does not want to have. They feel threatened by this kind of discussion, because they know that if people discuss these ideas, they might agree that these principles should be incorporated into their government.
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