Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
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30-05-2012, 10:40 PM
Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
I just watched an episode of The Interview on Revelation TV Studios hosted by Howard Conder featuring Richard Dawkins. Link Here.

At one point during their conversation Conder talked about how Jesus, a perfect being, had to be sacrificed because Adam and Eve were perfect being, but became imperfect with original sin. Hence, only the death of a perfect being could atone for what the perfect beings Adam and Eve did. My question is: If God created perfect beings that could become imperfect, were they ever perfect to being with?

Obviously, the skeptic will say of course not, and since God couldn't create a perfect that means God isn't perfect, and therefore not a god at all. What I'm curious about is how do believers account for this?

Can this be explained by freewill? Does freewill give a perfect being the option of becoming imperfect? Were Adam and Eve even perfect to being with (from a believers point of view) as Conder asserts? Please discuss! Big Grin

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30-05-2012, 10:46 PM
RE: Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
No, they were not. They didn't have belly buttons. Wait... maybe they were because they didn't have belly buttons. Aw crap, I confused myself.


This reminds me a lot of the recent thread about Eve and the apple.

To have free will do you have to know the consequences of what you are choosing? How different are conscious free will and ignorant free will? That still exists today after all these 6000 years. Confused
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30-05-2012, 11:13 PM (This post was last modified: 30-05-2012 11:17 PM by ghostexorcist.)
RE: Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
No, they were not. I once saw a video of the Australian creationist Ken Ham trying to reconcile the science of genetics with a literal interpretation of the bible. He claimed that Adam and Eve were genetically perfect, which allowed their children to mate without the resulting offspring suffering from birth defects. However, over time, the genes became too diluted, meaning brothers could no longer pound their sisters. I thought it was really funny because he was still supporting incest. I don't care how you package it, 6,000 years of sanctioned inbreeding makes Christianity look bad.
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30-05-2012, 11:23 PM
RE: Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
(30-05-2012 11:13 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  No, they were not. I once saw a video of the Australian creationist Ken Ham trying to reconcile the science of genetics with a literal interpretation of the bible. He claimed that Adam and Eve were genetically perfect, which allowed their children to mate without the resulting offspring suffering from birth defects. However, over time, the genes became too diluted, meaning brothers could no longer pound their sisters. I thought it was really funny because he was still supporting incest. I don't care how you package it, 6,000 years of sanctioned inbreeding makes Christianity look bad.
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31-05-2012, 12:15 AM
RE: Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
Why bother perpetuating the myth? There's no such thing as an Adam and Eve.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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31-05-2012, 12:22 AM
RE: Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
They're obviously not perfect if they managed to gt themselves kicked out of the garden of eden.

Hang on a second.....I resist temptation numerous times each day. Does this mean I am more perfect than them?

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31-05-2012, 12:41 AM
RE: Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
Anyhow it wasn't the apple that did it; it was the pear on the ground! No
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31-05-2012, 01:00 AM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2012 01:04 AM by ghostexorcist.)
RE: Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
(31-05-2012 12:15 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Why bother perpetuating the myth? There's no such thing as an Adam and Eve.

I'm surprised that Creationists haven't latched on to the scientific equivalent of "Genetic Adam and Eve." For those who don't know, all men and women on earth can be traced genetically to a single female and a single male who lived in ancient Africa. What is odd is that both lived thousands of years apart. How could this be possible you ask? Well, the men and women of the original small human population of Africa passed on their genes just like everybody else does. But not all of those separate lineages survived. Some of the original people either didn't have children due to injury, disease, or death, or someone in their lineage down the line didn't have children due to those same reasons. Countless lineages have gone extinct just like different animals species. The Mitochondrial DNA (that passed from mother to son) of one woman was lucky enough to survive the platitudes of prehistoric life to be passed on to every human alive. The Y chromosome of one man born thousands of years later was also lucky enough to survive as well. If I had a time machine, I would go back in time to give them each a BIG hug because I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them!
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31-05-2012, 01:04 AM
RE: Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
(31-05-2012 01:00 AM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  
(31-05-2012 12:15 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Why bother perpetuating the myth? There's no such thing as an Adam and Eve.

I'm surprised that Creationists haven't latched on to the scientific equivalent of "Genetic Adam and Eve." For those who don't know, all men and women on earth can be traced genetically to a single female and a single male who lived in ancient Africa. What is odd is that both lived thousands of years apart. How could this be possible you ask? Well, the men and women of the original small human population of Africa passed on their genes just like everybody else does. But not all of those separate lineages survived. Some of the original people either didn't have children due to injury, disease, or death, or someone in their lineage down the line didn't have children due to those same reasons. Countless lineages have gone extinct just like different animals species. The Mitochondrial DNA (that passed from mother to son) of one woman was lucky enough to survive the platitudes of prehistoric life to be passed on to every human alive. The Y chromosome of one man born thousands of years later was also lucky enough to survive as well. If I had a time machine, I would go back in time to give them a bug hug because I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them!
I'm not Evolutionary expert by any means, but how do we know it was limited to 1 couple? Isn't it possible there were a number of genes that were selected as being "fit" to pass on? Couldn't it have been an entire generation or two instead of just two specific animals?

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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31-05-2012, 01:12 AM
RE: Were Adam and Eve Perfect?
(31-05-2012 01:04 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I'm not Evolutionary expert by any means, but how do we know it was limited to 1 couple? Isn't it possible there were a number of genes that were selected as being "fit" to pass on? Couldn't it have been an entire generation or two instead of just two specific animals?

I'm not an expert either (I've only read about it in popular science books). Genetic drift seems to be the answer. As each separate human lineage died out, more genes from the surviving lineages would flood into the remaining human population. More and more lineages continued to die until the dominant Mitochondrial DNA belonged to one female and the Y Chromosome belonged to one male who lived much later. Here is a chart from the Wiki article on the woman. Notice how it starts out with a whole bunch of colors, but some of the them dead end in different generations, leading to the dominance of the black stick lady.

[Image: MtDNA-MRCA-generations-Evolution.svg]
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