Were the Jews actually Armenians?
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09-02-2016, 11:19 AM
Were the Jews actually Armenians?
I think it is a tantalizing thing to think that the Jewish people were, in fact, Armenians who were proto-Europeans, and, indeed, the Aryan people of Ur. Actually the Bible says this because Abraham came from Ur of the Charldees, which makes him an Aryan from the Sumerian city of Ur.

Here is where Manetho and Josephus said the Jewish people came from:

Manetho on the Hyksos
Manetho, Aegyptiaca., frag. 42, 1.75-79.2

Hyksos king Tutimaeus [0]. In his reign, for what cause I know not, a blast of God smote us; and unexpectedly, from the regions of the East, invaders of obscure race marched in confidence of victory against our land. By main force they easily overpowered the rulers of the land, they then burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of the gods, and treated all the natives with a cruel hostility, massacring some and leading into slavery the wives and children of others. Finally, they appointed as king one of their number whose name was Salitis. He had his seat at Memphis, levying tribute from Upper and Lower Egypt, and leaving garrisons behind in the most advantageous positions. Above all, he fortified the district to the east, foreseeing that the Assyrians, as they grew stronger, would one day covet and attack his kingdom.

In the Saite [Sethroite] nome he found a city very favorably situated on the east of the Bubastite branch of the Nile, and called Auaris (= Avaris ) after an ancient religious tradition. This place he rebuilt and fortified with massive walls, planting there a garrison of as many as 240,000 heavy-armed men to guard his frontier. Here he would come in summertime, partly to serve out rations and pay his troops, partly to train them carefully in manoeuvres and so strike terror into foreign tribes.

Josephus Flavius quoting passages concerning the Hyksos from Manetho's Aegyptiaca
Josephus Flavius: Against Apion

Book 1, section 73
Under a king of ours named Timaus (Tutimaeus) God became angry with us, I know not how, and there came, after a surprising manner, men of obscure birth from the east, and had the temerity to invade our country, and easily conquered it by force, as we did not do battle against them. After they had subdued our rulers, they burnt down our cities, and destroyed the temples of the gods, and treated the inhabitants most cruelly; killing some and enslaving their wives and their children.

Then they made one of their own king. His name was Salatis [1]; he lived at Memphis, and both the upper and lower regions had to pay tribute to him. He installed garrisons in places that were the most suited for them. His main aim was to make the eastern parts safe, expecting the Assyrians, at the height of their power, to covet his kingdom, and invade it. In the Saite Nome there was a city very proper for this purpose, by the Bubastic arm of the Nile. With regard to a certain theologic notion it was called Avaris. He rebuilt and strengthened this city by surrounding it with walls, and by stationing a large garrison of two hundred and forty thousand armed men there. Salitis came there in the summer, to gather corn in order to pay his soldiers, and to exercise his men, and thus to terrify foreigners.
After a reign of thirteen years, he was followed by one whose name was Beon [2], who ruled for for forty-four years. After him reigned Apachnas [3] for thirty-six years and seven months. After him Apophis [4] was king for sixty-one years, followed by Janins for fifty years and one month. After all these Assis reigned during forty-nine years and two months.
These six were their first kings. They all along waged war against the Egyptians, and wanted to destroy them to the very roots.

"These people, whom we have called kings before, and shepherds too, and their descendants," as he [5] says, "held Egypt for five hundred and eleven years. Then," he says, "the kings of Thebes and the other parts of Egypt rose against the shepherds, and a long and terrible war was fought between them."
He says further, "By a king, named Alisphragmuthosis [6], the shepherds were subdued, and were driven out of the most parts of Egypt and shut up in a place named Avaris, measuring ten thousand acres." Manetho says, "The shepherds had built a wall surrounding this city, which was large and strong, in order to keep all their possessions and plunder in a place of strength.
Tethmosis [7], son of Alisphragmuthosis, attempted to take the city by force and by siege with four hundred and eighty thousand men surrounding it. But he despaired of taking the place by siege, and concluded a treaty with them, that they should leave Egypt, and go, without any harm coming to them, wherever they wished. After the conclusion of the treaty they left with their families and chattels, not fewer than two hundred and forty thousand people, and crossed the desert into Syria. Fearing the Assyrians, who dominated over Asia at that time, they built a city in the country which we now call Judea. It was large enough to contain this great number of men and was called Jerusalem.

Book 1, section 93

I shall quote Manetho again, and what he writes as to the order of the times in this case. He says "After this people or shepherds [8] had left Egypt to go to Jerusalem, Tethmosis [2], who drove them out, was king of Egypt and reigned for twenty five years and four months, and then died; ..."

Book 1, section 227

He [5] writes these words: "Those sent to work in the quarries lived miserably for a long while, and the king was asked to set apart the city Avaris, which the shepherds had left, for their habitation and protection; and he granted them their wish.
According to the ancient mythology, Avaris was Typho's [10] city. But when these men had entered it, and found it suitable for a revolt, they chose a ruler from among the priests of Heliopolis, whose name was Osarsiph [9]. They swore an oath that they would obey him in all things. The first laws he gave them were that they should not worship the Egyptian gods, nor should they abstain from any of the sacred animals that the Egyptians held in the highest esteem, but could kill them, and that they should not ally themselves to any but those that were of their conspiracy.
After making such laws as these, and others contrary to Egyptian customs, he ordered that the many the hands at their service to be employed in building walls around the city and prepare for a war with king Amenophis. He colluded with the other priests, and those that were polluted as well, and sent ambassadors to those shepherds expelled by Tethmosis to Jerusalem, informing them of his own affairs, and of the state of those others that had been treated so shamefully, and desired that they would come united to his assistance in this war against Egypt. He also promised their return to their ancient city and land of Avaris and plentiful support for their people; that he would protect them and fight for them if need be, and that the land would easily be subdued. The shepherds were delighted with his message, and assembled two hundred thousand men. Shortly they arrived at Avaris.

King Amenophis of Egypt, when he heard of their invasion, was perplexed remembering what Amenophis, the son of Papis, had foretold him. He gathered many Egyptians, and deliberated with their leaders, and sent for their sacred animals, above all those worshipped in the temples, and ordered the priests to hide the images of their gods with the utmost care. He also sent his son Sethos, who was also called Ramses, and only five years old, from his father Rhampses to a friend of his. He continued with three hundred thousand of the most warlike Egyptians against the enemy, who met them. But he did not join battle with them, afraid to be fighting against the gods. He turned back and returned to Memphis, where he took Apis and the other sacred animals which he had sent for, and continued to Kush, together with his whole army and masses of Egyptians.
The king of Ethiopia was under an obligation to him and received him, and took care of the masses that were with him, while the land supplied all that was necessary for the men's sustenance. He gave them cities and villages to live in, that was to be from its beginning during those fatally determined thirteen years. He sent his army to guard the borders of Egypt in order to protect King Amenophis. And this is what happened in Kush."

This is some of what the Egyptians tell about the Jews, I omit much for brevity's sake. Manetho continues: "Later Amenophis returned from Kush with a great army, his son Ahampses led another army, and both of them joined battle with the shepherds and the polluted people, and conquered them, and killed a great many of them, and pursued them to the borders of Syria." These and more accounts like them are written by Manetho.
Source: Sorry, I've lost the reference

[0] Tutimaeus: Also Tutimaios, Timaios, perhaps Dedumos? There were two kings of this name during the Second Intermediate Period, Djedneferre and Djedhetepre, variously assigned to either the 13th or the 16th dynasty. Many historians reject the suggestion that Tutimaeus is identical with Dedumos.
[1] Salatis: Salitis, possibly Sheshi
[2] Beon: Yakubber?
[3] Apachnas: Khyan
[4] Apophis: Apepi I
[5] He: Manetho
[6] Alisphragmuthosis: Kamose
[7] Tethmosis: Ahmose
[8] An Egyptian term misunderstood by Flavius: This whole nation was styled Hyksos, that is, Shepherd-kings: for the first syllable Hyk, according to the sacred dialect, denotes a king, as is sos a shepherd; but this according to the ordinary dialect; and of these is compounded Hyksos: but some say that these people were Arabians." Now in another copy it is said that this word does not denote Kings, but, on the contrary, denotes Captive Shepherds, and this on account of the particle Hyk; for that Hyk, with the aspiration, in the Egyptian tongue again denotes Shepherds, and that expressly also; and this to me seems the more probable opinion, and more agreeable to ancient history.
Josephus Flavius,Against Apion, 1,73
[9] Moses: It was also reported that the priest, who ordained their polity and their laws, was by birth of Heliopolis, and his name Osarsiph, from Osyris, who was the god of Heliopolis; but that when he was gone over to these people, his name was changed, and he was called Moses.
[10] Typho: Set

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09-02-2016, 11:24 AM
RE: Were the Jews actually Armenians?
So... superficial sharpshooter-fallacy spurious connections mean that all near eastern historiography is wrong?

Uh... okay, then. You go on believing that, champ.

... this is my signature!
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09-02-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: Were the Jews actually Armenians?
As I have written in other posts, the whole of the Old Testament, which is supposed to be about the Jewish people, simply describes a society which goes back to Ur, in Sumeria. It is a history of the rulers of this people and nothing in the Old Testament in the remotest way describes a people who bear any resemblance to modern Jewish people. What we have now is a Jewish people who are part of the intelligentsia of modern society, well educated and prosperous. The Old Testament describes a warring bunch of savages who end up destroying their own civilization and handing it over to the Romans.

Somehow, this ancient story of these debauched, feudal people came to be written down and modern Jewish people got hold of the idea that they were the only people who could legitimately claim to have been these ancient barbarians. Why they want to be associated with ancient Jews defies reason, but then so does almost anything to do with religion and claims of descent from Adam and Eve, and god himself.

Shlomo Sand wrote about this. I mention this because it could be though that the Hyksos couldn't possibly be the same people as the "Hebrews" because we all look for a bunch of poor people who were expelled from Egypt presumably out of some kind of racism against "Jews". But if one looks at it sensible and sees that the Hebrews described in the Old Testament are in no way the same people as modern Jews, then there is no impediment to the proposition that the Hyksos are the Israelistes, and that they were just a tribe of Aryans from Greater Armenia.

The Invention of the Jewish People

By (author) Shlomo Sand , Translated by Yeal Lotan

All modern nation states have a story of their origins, passed down through both official and popular culture, and yet few of these accounts have proved as divisive and influential as the Israeli national myth. The well-known tale of Jewish exile at the hands of the Romans during the first century AD, and the assertion of both cultural and racial continuity through to the Jewish people of the present day, resonates far beyond Israels borders. Despite its use as a justification for Jewish settlement in Palestine and the project of a Greater Israel, there have been few scholarly investigations into the historical accuracy of the story as a whole. In this bold and ambitious new book, Shlomo Sand shows that the Israeli national myth has its origins in the nineteenth century, rather than in biblical times when Jewish historians, like scholars in many other cultures, reconstituted an imagined people in order to model a future nation. Sand forensically dissects the official story and demonstrates the construction of a nationalist myth and the collective mystification that this requires. A bestseller in Israel and France, Shlomo Sands book has sparked a widespread and lively debate. Should the Jewish people regard themselves as genetically distinct and identifiable across the millennia or should that doctrine now be left behind and if the myth of the Jewish state is dismantled, could this open a path toward a more inclusive Israeli state, content within its borders?
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09-02-2016, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2016 12:29 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Were the Jews actually Armenians?
If you look at genetic studies, the Welsh, Irish and Basques share dna with the Armenians and Greater Armenia covered the area which is now Turkey and Syria, where all this religious stuff comes from.


Of course, the Hyksos were the same people as the Armenians and the god figure of the Armenians is Hayk who is also represented as the star/planet configuration of Orion. Comparative mythology

"Further information: culture hero

The figure slain by Hayk's arrow is variously given as Bel or Nimrod. Hayk is also the name of the Orion constellation in the Armenian translation of the Bible. Hayk is identified with the Sun-God Orion. Just as Hayk fled from Babylon because of Bel, whom he eventually killed, so Zeus had escaped to the mountains of the Caucasus, later to return to Sicily and hurl fatal arrows into the bodies of his titanic foes" wiki


Texts referring to the god Horus (additional explanations)

Indications, references, and texts are listed in points 1 to 18 below (in random sequence):

In the Dictionary of Scientific Biography, Vol.XV, supplement I, Egyptologist R. Parker wrote a summary, titled Egyptian Astronomy, Astrology, and Calendrical Reckoning (p.706 to 727). In this publication, he describes in broad outline the particular development of the calendrical reckoning by the ancient Egyptians, based on their astronomical knowledge. On page 711, Parker writes: “At some time before [pharaoh] Unas, then, but after the civil calendar was adopted, another unknown Egyptian astronomer devised a scheme to divide the night into parts by using the apparent movement of the stars. We know that this apparent movement is due to the rotation of the Earth on its axis and its travel about the sun. He did not. For him the stars did rise, traverse the sky, and set, like the other heavenly bodies. He had studied the stars and had grouped many of them into constellations to which he gave names such as Nakht = Nht = Strong Arm (Giant), Reret (Hippopotamus), Sah (Orion), Meskhetiu (Foreleg of Adze, the Big Dipper)”.

If Parker is right on this point, the Pyramid Texts are based merely upon the following four constellations: Nakht = Nht = Strong Arm (Giant), Sah (Orion), the constellation that belongs to the warlike group (Horus), Reret (Hippopotamus), and Meskhetiu, the constellation that belongs to the group of circumpolar stars (Seth).

Further Plutarch explained: “Moreover, they record that in the books attributed to Hermes it is written in regard to the sacred names, that they call the power, which is assigned to direct the revolution of the Sun, Horus” (Isis and Osiris, 61, Plutarch). So, Horus is the power and not the Sun or Sun-god! The following points 1 to 18 explain the allocation of Horus and his relation to Orion.

1) In Études de Nautique Egyptienne by Charles Boreux, p. 110, one finds the characteristic hieroglyph T15, which, according to Egyptologist Boreux, represents the western delta, the region that is the homeland of Horus.

2) In Kingship and the Gods, Henry Frankfort, p. 87, one can read: “The procession moves to the chapel of Horus of Libya, who lifts his arm.”

3) In Le Secret des bâtisseurs des grandes Pyramides Khéops, George Goyon writes on p.89: “Le monument doit être placé sous la protection astrale du dieu Horus, Seigneur de Khem (Létopolis).” Translation: “The monument must be marked out [determining the location] under the protection [or with the help] of the god Horus, Lord of Khem.” Horus presided (meaning: to sit on the throne or chair) at Khem. “In order to orientate the pyramid towards the sacred place Khem, the astronomers determined the true north by means of a fixed star, the Polar Star” [between 3,050 and 2,850 BCE: the star alpha Draconis] (ibid, p.89).

4) The constellation Lepus has the form of a chair; the star Arneb is the uppermost star of the central chair leg, which is known as the Chair of the Giant and the Throne of Jauzah (Star Names, Hinckley Allen, p.265). The name Arneb is derived from the Greek word Arnebeschènis, which means that Horus presides over Letopolis (LÄ III, col.41, 42, see also LÄ II, col. 998f Harnebeschinis).

5) The Copts called Orion the star [the constellation] of Horus (LÄ IV, col.609).

6) The term Gizeh stands for Orion (see my explanation above). See also The Great Pyramid by Piazzi Smyth, p. 4 and Star Names, Hinckley Allen, p. 307.

7) “Horus as Orion” and “Orion was the soul of Horus” (Life in Ancient Egypt, Erman, p. 271 and 348). “Orion was the soul of Horus”, (see also Isis and Osiris, Plutarch, p. 53). Remark: after Osiris had been killed by Seth, Horus succeeded his father Osiris. The constellation Scorpio is diametrically opposite to Orion. When Orion rises – is born – on the eastern horizon, the constellation Scorpio (Osiris) disappears – dies – below the western horizon, where the underworld and the world of death (the West) assumedly began. Osiris was, par excellence, the God of Death, Rebirth, and the Netherworld). During his lifetime, the Pharaoh was Horus, and after his death he became Osiris.

8) “… and its course lies not far from that of Orion and the Dog-star; of these the Egyptians believe that one is sacred to Horus and the other to Isis.”(Isis and Osiris, Plutarch, p. 55)

9) In Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch/Deutsch by the German Egyptologist Hannig, page 857, 3rd line, one can find a synonym for Horus as follows:
I believe that this shows the ‘strong arm’ in combination with the ‘throwstick’ and a casing-stone from a pyramid. That latter hieroglyph is nowadays translated as ‘sandy hill’, which I consider to be incorrect.

10) “The Ready Fighter, Horus who is over the stars of the sky”; see Pyramid Texts, Faulkner, par.449, and note 7, which literally quotes: ‘fighter with the arm.’

11)”I worship Min, I extol arm-raising Horus.” (Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol.I, Lichtheim, p.204)

12) “[…], just as Horus, who presides over Khem [Letopolis], lives“ (Pyramid Texts, Faulkner, par. 910) and at explanation: “[…], as with the throwsticks [hieroglyph T 15] of Him [Horus] who presides over Khem“ (ibid. Faulkner, par. 908). The battle-axe, or club, was the characteristic item by which Horus was recognized. (Etudes de Nautique Egyptienne, Boreux, p. 110)

13) In the sacred temple city of Letopolis, the 14 shoulder blades of the god Osiris are kept as venerated relics. These 14 parts correspond to 11 pyramids, Abu Rawash, Gizeh (3x), Zawjet el Aryan (2x), Abusir (pyramid city 5th Dynasty), Sakkara (2x), and Dahshur (2x), and the 3 temple cities: Letopolis, Heliopolis, and Memphis (Die Cheopspyramide, Goyon, p. 249, note 111), amounting to a total of 14 parts. A text at Denderah says that the figure consists of 14 parts, whereas other texts mention 16. The pyramids Meidum and Seila are the 2 parts that fill out the difference.

14) “Horus was the great god, Lord of the sky”, and “we grant strength to thine arm.” (The Triumph of Horus, Fairman, p. 90)

15) On the ceiling of the entrance to the hypostyle room at Denderah, we see the rectangular zodiac, on which the Horus-falcon on his standard (papyrus column, hieroglyph M13) is shown, which is placed between the heavenly cow Sirius and Orion. This indicates that Horus ruled the central sector of the sky (width: 42º), from the star Alhena to the star Algol/the Pleiades (see Sterrenbeeld van Horus (Egypt: ‘Image of Heaven’), fig. 6 and Ch.4).

16) The Pyramid texts by Faulkner, par. 1089; 1285; 1373; and 1507, mention a girdle or the wearing of a girdle as follows: “I am girt with the girdle of Horus”; “You have relieved Horus of his girdle”; “I am girded as Horus”; “The pharaoh [is said to have gone out] from his house girded as Horus.“

The red granite architrave of pharaoh Sahure can be seen in the Egyptian Museum in Berlin. The name of Sahure in the architrave consists of three hieroglyphs (see Hiërogliefen lezen, p. 51, K.Zauzich). The middle hieroglyph is D61 (Eg.Gr., Gardiner) and, according to Egyptologist K. Locher, it represents the head of Orion. On several lids of sarcophagi, he appears to wear it as a crown; it was the customary way to adorn deities with his or her characteristic ideogram. The belt or girdle of Orion is the most characteristic part of the constellation Orion, and I therefore venture to suggest that the resembling hieroglyph D61 may be an accessory: a buckle or an indiscernible pin by which a loincloth or belt is fixed or tightened. The pictured object shows three teeth that are connected at the bottom by a strip. On the left side of this strip, there is a small cord in the shape of an eye. On closer examination of the picture, the three teeth appear to be linked together by a similar cord which could be used to pull or connect something. There are also versions with two and with four teeth (see New arguments for the celestial location of the decanal belt and for the origin of the S3h hieroglyph, p. 281, Locher).

These suppositions would mean that Sah is not the toe-star Rigel of Orion, and that D61 represents the belt of Orion. The waist is known as the belt of Orion and the reference to “Horus who wears the belt” would mean that Horus represents Orion.

Remark: The pyramid of Abu Rawash is called “The pyramid which is the Sehedu-star” (Atlas van het oude Egypte, Baines en Malek, p. 140). Hence, the toe-star Rigel is the Sehedu-star, because a projection of the constellation Orion onto the pyramid field shows that this star correlates with the pyramid of Abu Rawash. The name of the northern pyramid at Zawjet el Aryan of pharaoh Baka also refers to a star, according to an inscription on the wall made by a team of workmen: “Baka is a star” (De Ibis 23, 1998 no.3, p.106). These stars mark the astronomical “main outline” between the giant stars Rigel and Betelgeuse of the constellation Orion (The Atlas of the Universe, P.Moore, p. 216).

17) An image of the northern sky, portrayed on the ceiling of the temple of Senmut, shows Horus holding a spear. The temple of Horus at Edfu was built to commemorate the Triumph of Horus over Seth, and it was measured out on August 23rd, 237 BCE (III Smw 7, year 10 of Ptolemy III, on the sixth day of the Moon-month; Calendars, Parker, par. 102), On that day, the constellation Orion (the stars Nu Orion, Betelgeuse and Saiph) was located on the primus verticalis (first meridian) exactly in the south, while Kochab with Pherkad of the constellation Ursa Minor, and eta Draconis, were also on the primus verticalis, (first meridian) yet exactly in the north. We know from inscriptions in the temple that the building was measured out – stretching the cord – in exact alignment with the four cardinal points of the compass by observing Orion and Ursa Major (De Ibis 26, 2001 no.2, p. 55). My astronomical investigations show that the inclusion of Ursa Major is incorrect; it is Ursa Minor, which is meant. It appears that Orion (Horus with the spear) must keep control over stars in the polar region (i.e. circumpolar stars near the earth’s axis), in order to ensure the continuity of humanity’s earthly existence (threatened by Seth). I believe that Seth symbolically is the star Alcor, which is located near the star Mizar (zeta Ursa Major) in Ursa Major; the Roman poet Ovid revealingly called that star Atlantis. According to the Roman Hyginus, this star Alcor left its location in the Pleiades as a comet or falling star and assumed a new position near the star Mizar; this led to a catastrophe on earth (Star Names, Hinckley Allen, p. 406 and p. 445-446, and Hamlett’s Mill, de Santillana and von Dechend, p. 385). Uta-napishtim, builder of the houseboat MA.GUR, (Die Sterne von Babylon, Papke, p.148-152) managed to escape this catastrophe, which was known as Era or Irra-Epos.

Remark concerning the current translation of hieroglyph F23 (mshtyw) as “the constellation Ursa Major”; however F23 may also refer to “ the constellation Ursa Minor”, since the orientation of the Horus-temple at Edfu was based on Ursa Minor, not on Ursa Major. Egyptologist Borchardt also held the opinion that Ursa Minor had the form of the Adze. (The Pyramid Texts in Translation and Commentaries, Lauer, op.cit. p. 106, footnote 1)

18) Pyramid Text §956-959 is an iconographical text, in which Orion is definitely and indisputably brought into relation with Horus. Approximately 1,500 years after the Pyramid Texts were written, pharaoh Ramesses II ordered Pyramid Text §959 to be displayed as a wall relief in the temple of Abu Simbel. Abu Simbel was the southern gate to Egypt (see picture Fig.7a or Kingship and the Gods, Frankfort, fig. 10).
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09-02-2016, 12:52 PM
RE: Were the Jews actually Armenians?
(09-02-2016 11:24 AM)cjlr Wrote:  So... superficial sharpshooter-fallacy spurious connections mean that all near eastern historiography is wrong?

Uh... okay, then. You go on believing that, champ.


And you go on believing history as set out in the Old Testament, because that is what we in the West have been taught.

By the way, this is a forum for atheists and one of the pre-requisites of being a genuine atheist is that we question dogma written by people who believe in a god, which means scrutinizing the Old Testament version of history, since it is patently not the word of god and therefore based on a palpable falsehood.

But...uh...you go on believing in the word of god if that makes you feel good...Champ.
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09-02-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Were the Jews actually Armenians?
The problem is, that if you accept the Old Testament as history, and you are wrong, then what is the real history? If the real history is as set out in more contemporaneous historical works, then the god of the Jews is Horus and the Jews were Armenians...

There isn't any alternative. You either accept a religious version of history written by people who tell us that the world was created in seven days and that the whole world flooded and people turned to salt by looking in the wrong direction, or you read Josephus and you look at DNA and archaeological records which show exactly what I have set out above, that the Egyptians were Horus worshippers, as were the Armenian/Hyksos.

There isn't a third version. There isn't another interpretation of history of that era which say something different, like the Jews were actually from Japan or Finland. There are the two versions, that they were a people described in the Old Testament as descended from god's creation, Adam and his rib, Eve, and their two sons who then, presumably must have mated with sisters, or their own mother to produce the entire human race, or ........shock, horror...... you have to look at something which.....shock horror......goes against this patently fantastical history....and consider that it might just be possible that the word "Jew" might have been used to describe some people who came from a place only a few hundred miles up the coast from the Nile Delta, ie., Greater Armenia.

Shock horror.....
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09-02-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: Were the Jews actually Armenians?
(09-02-2016 12:52 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 11:24 AM)cjlr Wrote:  So... superficial sharpshooter-fallacy spurious connections mean that all near eastern historiography is wrong?

Uh... okay, then. You go on believing that, champ.


And you go on believing history as set out in the Old Testament, because that is what we in the West have been taught.

By the way, this is a forum for atheists and one of the pre-requisites of being a genuine atheist is that we question dogma written by people who believe in a god, which means scrutinizing the Old Testament version of history, since it is patently not the word of god and therefore based on a palpable falsehood.

But...uh...you go on believing in the word of god if that makes you feel good...Champ.

And to be a genuine scotsman, one must wear a kilt...

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09-02-2016, 01:11 PM
RE: Were the Jews actually Armenians?
So, rather than sitting back and accepting BS history from the Old Testament, why not engage and set out who these people were.

My attitude is that as soon as someone takes the position that a DNA researcher like Elhaik at Johns Hopkins "has to be wrong" and that any different version of Near East history "has to be wrong" because it conflicts with accepted Jewish versions of their own history, the immediately lose any credibility simply because they are blinkered and not objective. Not to forget that the Jewish version, here on an atheistic forum, has to be given no credence whatsoever and anyone putting it forward should be forced to justify it from independent sources or get laughed off the forum.

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09-02-2016, 01:11 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2016 01:16 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Were the Jews actually Armenians?
The god of the Jews was never, (ever) "Horus". Yahweh's roots were in Babylon. Making up shit again, as usual, I see, db. Abraham was entirely MYTHICAL. The Jews were indigenous to Canaan. A trip by caravan at the (supposed) time of Abraham, would have been very unlikely, as camels had not been domesitcated yet. Since you know and have actaully studied NO HISTORY, you are free to cook up any randon bullshit your dot-connecting mind conjures up.

You are a complete fraud. REAL historians and real archaeologists know the history of the ancient Near East. You do not.
Josephus recited in his works ALL the ancient MYTHS of Israel. He is not a credible historian of Israel, any more than YOU are, db. The fact that you actually know SO little of the real sources and work done in the subject, proves you are a snake-oil salesman/charlatan. There is NOT ONE modern aracheologist that agress with your bullshit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-02-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: Were the Jews actually Armenians?
(09-02-2016 12:52 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 11:24 AM)cjlr Wrote:  So... superficial sharpshooter-fallacy spurious connections mean that all near eastern historiography is wrong?

Uh... okay, then. You go on believing that, champ.


And you go on believing history as set out in the Old Testament, because that is what we in the West have been taught.

No competent school of history teaches literal Biblical history. Nor have I espoused as much. I defy you to substantiate a claim otherwise.

It is quite another thing to insist - based on nothing substantial - that ancient Jews, for whom all extant material evidence fits perfectly on a cultural continuum with all the neighbouring west semitic peoples, were actually magic interlopers. Magic interlopers who were Aryan Armenian Sumerians, no less, when those are themselves three non-overlapping categories.

So... straw man says what?

(09-02-2016 12:52 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  By the way, this is a forum for atheists and one of the pre-requisites of being a genuine atheist is that we question dogma written by people who believe in a god, which means scrutinizing the Old Testament version of history, since it is patently not the word of god and therefore based on a palpable falsehood.

"Skepticism means not accepting things, so by not accepting even demonstrably true things, I win at skepticism!"

Yes, dear. That's what the anti-vaxxers and climate deniers tell themselves too, to help them sleep at night.

But seriously. Straw man says what?
(hint: the choice is not between your nonsense and literal Biblical history - we call that in the business of skepticism a false choice. There exists something in between called all of modern historiography, which you'll have to overturn first)

(09-02-2016 12:52 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  But...uh...you go on believing in the word of god if that makes you feel good...Champ.

Oh, come the fuck on. Are you even trying?

... this is my signature!
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