Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
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03-03-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
(02-03-2015 06:41 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 03:36 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  They do protest, but the media (and TTA) love to talk about the 50 (?) Westboro protestors/members, not the 50 million "true" Christians.

Theoretical definition of true Christianity: Christianity as was/is meant to be practiced by God, Christ, the Bible etc.

Functional definition of true Christianity: Christianity as practiced by the speaker, as opposed to some other set of people who identify as Christian.

Ratio of time spent by self-identifying "true" Christians persuading "false" Christians that their Christianity is false, as opposed to congratulating themselves on the "true"ness of their Christianity or explaining to third parties how those false Christians aren't representative of Christianity because they aren't "true" Christians: Virtually zero.

(But we're supposed to judge the tree by the fruit it bears. Except not if that fruit is rotten.)

Implications of "true" Christianity versus "false" Christianity: There is no easily- and reliably-verifiable objective means of identifying true Christianity, or such a thing as true Christianity does not exist. If there were such a means, the "true" Christians could simply show it to the "false" Christians and bring most of them into the fold that way. In the absence of such a verification method, reasonable inquiry cannot lead one to "true" Christianity; one would either have to be guided there by some sort of external revelation, direct or indirect, or simply luck out. Furthermore, the large number of people identifying themselves as "true" Christians, vis-a-vis large numbers of other people who they identify as "false" Christians but identify themselves as "true" Christians, suggests by simple probability that most people who consider themselves to be "true" Christians, even those who believe they were guided to their flavor of "true" Christianity by revelation, are in error... and the lack of a method of objective verification means they have no way of knowing that they are in error.

Which makes me ask... again... how would you know if you were in error? What method do you have that works for you, that others don't have or which fails to work for them? What extremes of perspicacity, genius, or luck makes you so much more special than all those false Christians who are getting it wrong?

..... also, 50 million? 50 MILLION? By Wikipedia, roughly 2.4 BILLION people worldwide are categorized as Christian, though obviously not "true" Christians. So... the odds of someone identifying as a Christian being a "true" Christian are only a hair above 2%? I don't like your chances there, bucko.

In any event, it's a good indicator that the rest of us shouldn't try to use the Christian faith as a guide for how to live or treat others. It's got a 98% failure rate, according to its PROPONENT! WTF!

Great questions. Very thoughtful. I commend you.

Personally, I try to follow the Bible as closely as I can. I'm certain the Westboro people will say the same--but I think they're really not. I think deep down they know they are destructive and foolish, and that their great anger is quite misplaced.

I hope that helps.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-03-2015, 07:05 PM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
(02-03-2015 09:28 PM)Free Wrote:  
(01-03-2015 11:16 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  It looks like the family is attempting to make the funeral private, perhaps to keep these fucking idiots away. Grrrr. All I can say is.....Beat_stick

http://www.inquisitr.com/1885437/leonard...l-be-held/

I am going to scare the fuck out of the paster of that church. I have a plan ... a deviously, delicious, absolutely evil little plan.

Evil_monster

Have at it. That prick of a pastor should be poked with a pike.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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03-03-2015, 10:22 PM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
[Image: B_OSOtiUsAAV9he.jpg:large]
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04-03-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
What a great thread? Not. Three pages of NTS. Really--do you folks have anything new?

You are "into" the Westboro madmen because the 50 of them prop up myths you have about the 50 million Christians who loved Leonard Nimoy!

Live long and prosper... peace and long life... and stop being illogical!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-03-2015, 09:15 AM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
(04-03-2015 01:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 03:36 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  They do protest, but the media (and TTA) love to talk about the 50 (?) Westboro protestors/members, not the 50 million "true" Christians.
What a great thread? Not. Three pages of NTS. Really--do you folks have anything new?
You are "into" the Westboro madmen because the 50 of them prop up myths you have about the 50 million Christians who loved Leonard Nimoy!
Live long and prosper... peace and long life... and stop being illogical!

Q, I wondered what you meant by NTS in the post above so I read through this thread. I notice H4ym4n referred to WBC as "True Christians" bit noone seemed to bite. It seems like after that you were the one who brought up the fallacy. By which I mean, your posts above can be reorganised into a close paraphrase of the fallacy.

Rationalwiki states the formal form of NTS as follows[1]:
A: "For all members in set S, predicate P applies."
B: "Here's X. It's a member of set S, but P does not apply, invalidating your statement."
A: "No. X isn't a member of set S, because P does not apply to it."

For the following values
A is The Q Continuum.
B is the broader commentary on this thread
S is the set of Christians
P is "loved Leonard Nimoy"
X is the "50 (?) Westboro protestors/members"

This expands to:
The Q Continuum: All members of the set of Christians loved Leonard Nimoy
The broader commentary on this thread: Here's the 50 (?) Westboro protestors/members. It's a subset of Christians, but they do not love Leonard Nimoy, invalidating your statement."
The Q Continuum: No. The 50 (?) Westboro protestors/members aren't a subset of Christians, because they do not love Leonard Nimoy.

Now you didn't quite match the form of the fallacy because you didn't claim WBC members were excluded from the set of "true" Christians because they do not love Leonard Nimoy, but you skated awfully close to saying this.

I think the fallacy you were looking for is Appeal to novelty, whose forms is[2]:
Major premise: P is novel.
Minor premise (unstated): Something novel is inevitably correct or better
Conclusion: P is correct or better.

For example:
Major premise: The WBC are a novel branch of Christianity
Minor premise (unstated): Something novel is inevitably correct or better
Conclusion: The WBC are a correct or better branch of Christianity (than the 50 million Christians who love Leonard Nimoy)

But I think the point is maybe something missed in the discussion of fallacies, which is that you are embarrassed by WBC activities and don't see or want to see yourself have any connection to them. Moreover they don't reflect the views of mainstream Christianity. Discussions about whether they are true Christians or better or worse is somewhat of a red herring.

[1] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
[2] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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05-03-2015, 11:28 AM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
(04-03-2015 01:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  do you folks have anything new?

and stop being illogical!

Two comments I find strange comming from you..
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05-03-2015, 01:36 PM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
(04-03-2015 01:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What a great thread? Not. Three pages of NTS. Really--do you folks have anything new?

You are "into" the Westboro madmen because the 50 of them prop up myths you have about the 50 million Christians who loved Leonard Nimoy!

Live long and prosper... peace and long life... and stop being illogical!

Why do you suppose atheists talk so much about religions? It's not because of people who quietly go to weekly services or quietly pray at home and mind their own business. It's because of the ones who can't resist smearing their beliefs all over everything regardless of what anyone else believes. WBC members are right up there among the worst of these. So it's no big surprise that the subject comes up repeatedly here (although your comment exaggerates the true extent). And no one is saying that all Christians are like WBC members. The point is that WBC members follow the bible more literally than typical Christians so it seems a bit odd to hear typical Christians speaking out against them without recognizing the hypocrisy. It underscores the rose-colored glasses and cherry-picking that is so prevalent.

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06-03-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
All,

Of course (and I alluded to this in earlier posts on this thread) I have something in common with Westboro, fundamental views of the Bible. But will you allow me to distance myself from their lifestyle behaviors which are atrocious?

Many of you have studied the Bible and are not less than 100% wrong about almost every conclusion you've drawn. But I can say the same for the Westboro group and that has less to do with NTS than with the fact that I find them disgusting and you more open-minded.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-03-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
(06-03-2015 08:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But will you allow me to distance myself from their lifestyle behaviors which are atrocious?

Of course you can distance yourself - as far as I can tell, you don't condone the same behaviors - however, it's hard to understand why when you believe in the very same book that they do that gives the very same instructions. The problem is you want the best of both worlds. You want to maintain your ethical behavior while maintaining a belief that the bible doesn't tell you to do otherwise; when, in fact, it does.

(06-03-2015 08:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Many of you have studied the Bible and are not less than 100% wrong about almost every conclusion you've drawn.

100% wrong? I think not and I wouldn't even make that claim about you. The claim I would make is that many atheists on this site are right about the bible far more than you are.

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09-03-2015, 01:47 PM
RE: Westboro B C to protest Leonard Nimoy's funeral
(06-03-2015 11:16 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(06-03-2015 08:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But will you allow me to distance myself from their lifestyle behaviors which are atrocious?

Of course you can distance yourself - as far as I can tell, you don't condone the same behaviors - however, it's hard to understand why when you believe in the very same book that they do that gives the very same instructions. The problem is you want the best of both worlds. You want to maintain your ethical behavior while maintaining a belief that the bible doesn't tell you to do otherwise; when, in fact, it does.

(06-03-2015 08:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Many of you have studied the Bible and are not less than 100% wrong about almost every conclusion you've drawn.

100% wrong? I think not and I wouldn't even make that claim about you. The claim I would make is that many atheists on this site are right about the bible far more than you are.

It is untrue that one can make the Bible say anything. Were I to cook spaghetti and marshmallows, not meatballs, and claim Betty Crocker Cookbook adherence... the Westboro people have no right to do some of what they do.

And of course you'd say TTA atheists know the Bible better than I or interpret better than I, for if I've interpreted it accurately, you and I need to trust Christ or perish. Please trust Jesus for salvation.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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