Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
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04-12-2013, 09:08 PM
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
(04-12-2013 12:52 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  I dislike how fundamentalist Churches interpret the Bible, I really do.

They interpret it as it is written. Why do you have a problem with that?

Quote: In don't think how they depict God is at all accurate, nor His teachings.

Because you've *met* this gawd person, and know better? Rolleyes


Quote:And the reason is that they read and to interpret the Bible like many atheists do.

Are you here to strawman atheists? Because it might get a little rough for you.


Quote:Let me explain. Both tend to read the Bible and take it on face value and read it through the eyes of their own experience rather than an understanding of what it's saying.

You sound like you are making up your own interpretation of what it's supposed to mean. Gloss over the mass murder, incest, rape, pillage, etc, and pretend the gawd-character is a big fluffy bunny. It's bullshit.


Quote: For example, turn to passages about menstration and we get 'women are dirty' without considering it in the wider context of all the other cleanliness laws and why they were put in place. Or read Paul's advice on women's speaking in church without asking the questions within the context of a gentile ministry of a Jewish faith, cultural context, expectations of the second coming, etc.

You are making up your own interpretations.

Quote:What I mean is that they tend to interpret in isolation and so miss the point of or even worse read what they want it to say, not what it does.

Sounds like precisely what YOU are doing.


Quote: When this is done in a fundamentalist Church, it is so damaging not only to the faith, but to the faith of the people there.

"Faith" NEEDS to be damaged.

Quote:I think to see fundamentalist churches as 'the true followers of the Bible' on the basis that they have a blanket literal interpretation of the Bible is too much of an easy generalisation and I'd have to ask whether saying this is because they actually are 'getting it right' or because such a position makes a criticism against Christianity easier.

Sounds like you are really struggling with your cognitive dissonance.

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04-12-2013, 09:36 PM
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
Yasmin, if god exists and wants our worship, why would he expect 21st century humans to rely on an utterly confusing Bronze Age collection of books written in Hebrew and Greek? Why must we know the original languages, develop a 'sound hermeneutic', or instead rely on 'expert theologians' to interpret the passages in context, as you suggest?

Why doesn't he just show up here, establish his rule, and tell us all directly in our own language what the hell he expects from us? Why all the mystery and invisibility? Surely these things make you doubt your beliefs?
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05-12-2013, 04:19 AM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2013 10:35 PM by Dark Light.)
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
Every Christian denomination is convinced their way is the right way and only their brand of Christianity is the correct way. Baptists will say is of Catholics, Catholics say it of Calvinists, and Calvinists will say it of Mormons, et. al.

They are all so close to being right. All the others do have it wrong at least.

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05-12-2013, 06:09 AM
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
Really running low on ideas aren't they Westboro Baptist Church?
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05-12-2013, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2013 06:20 AM by Cathym112.)
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
Here is what I don't understand, Yaz.

If the bible is to be taken with a grain of salt, that ts unreliable as to the facts, then how is it not also unreliable as to the concepts it contains?

Think about math - if one element of a complex formula is wrong, than it doesn't matter how much you tweak those calculations, the answer will be wrong. You have to discard the entire formula. I know this analogy is a bit of a stretch but stay with me. I can't think of another example where the facts were wrong but the concept behind it was right.

It's not a baby out with the bath water situation...it's an accidentally sprinkled arsonic on your food instead of salt situation. Sure - you can wash it off, but eating it would still poison you.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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05-12-2013, 06:28 AM
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
I think these guys are nuts. But my take on my own death would be this. To my loved ones who'll survive me how would I have the capability of caring what others say about me, I'll be dead, Funerals are for the living, not the dead.

As morbid as what these assholes do, if they are not trespassing, impeding pedestrian or motor traffic, or violating noise laws, you should not stop them, I'd actually tell my friends and family to laugh at them because they are making hollow threats to a dead guy they cant hurt and basing it on a fictional sky hero.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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05-12-2013, 06:48 AM
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
(04-12-2013 12:52 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  I dislike how fundamentalist Churches interpret the Bible, I really do. In don't think how they depict God is at all accurate, nor His teachings.
What are the teachings of the true God then ? I bet that according to you they're a lot more fluffy than most of the Bible Wink The Bible is a nasty book. War, murder, genocide. Slavery. In the name of Goodness and Justice, that's what gets me - it's all presented as *right* to do this stuff. A slave's kids are also slaves. This is *right*...

There's some good stuff in there, mostly the stuff about not beating up other people and taking their stuff, but it's in direct contradiction to the rest of the book. And mostly said by JC, although JC himself has his vengeful dick moments too. Paul and all the other apostles went straight back to putting all the nasty stuff back in. Misogyny. Gay-bashing. Disapproval of anything sex related. Thought crime.

King Saul fell outta favour with God because he *failed* to slaughter every single living thing (excluding bacteria) when he attacked a city as God had commanded him. You tell me the metaphor in that ? You do think that this event actually happened right ? As in you believe that it is literal history.

Judge God for me, tell me, was what God commanded in this instance fair and just and merciful and *right* ?

Sorry to be piling on you here... it's not animosity... it's mostly frustration...

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-12-2013, 08:06 AM
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
(04-12-2013 09:08 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 12:52 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  I dislike how fundamentalist Churches interpret the Bible, I really do.

They interpret it as it is written. Why do you have a problem with that?

Yes and no. While they'll likely take a more literal approach than most Christians, they still consider some parts to be metaphorical or allegorical. Particularly the parts that either blatantly contradict other parts or the parts that are observably wrong (like Pi being equal to three).

Take the gospels: the four authors can't get their stories straight as to where Jesus was born, when Jesus was born, when he died, and what his last words were, let alone the important details of his life. He can't literally have been born in two different places, or literally died at two different times, or literally said two different things when he died.

It's impossible to actually be a literalist, except through ignorance or denial.
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05-12-2013, 10:59 AM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2013 04:13 PM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
(05-12-2013 08:06 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Yes and no. While they'll likely take a more literal approach than most Christians, they still consider some parts to be metaphorical or allegorical. Particularly the parts that either blatantly contradict other parts or the parts that are observably wrong (like Pi being equal to three).

Take the gospels: the four authors can't get their stories straight as to where Jesus was born, when Jesus was born, when he died, and what his last words were, let alone the important details of his life. He can't literally have been born in two different places, or literally died at two different times, or literally said two different things when he died.

It's impossible to actually be a literalist, except through ignorance or denial.

This is the basic point I make when asked, “But what if the bible is true?”

I just point out, that even if I believed the bible was absolutely, one hundred percent true, I still wouldn’t know how to follow it, or what to do with it, because it contradicts itself, and contradicts reality. I’ve read the bible, every single page, and if I “believed” it as one hundred percent accurate, having actually read it, and knowing what is in there, I still would be forced to explain some stuff as metaphor in order to make it work with the other stuff that (I’ve decided) “is not” metaphor, (i.e., other parts of the bible that “aren’t” metaphor, and observations of verifiable physical reality, “pi” as your example of one). But then, of course, I would no longer be believing it as one hundred percent true, so it just refuted itself. That would just circle me back to non-belief in the bible, because I would not be able to tell what part is literal and what part is metaphor.

At best I would just be sitting there with this book that I “believe” but not know what to do with it. In order to "use it" or "follow it", I'd have to start picking the things that I think are right, and I think make sense, and ignoring as metaphor the things I think are wrong. But, and I realized this at a very young age, that would mean I’m deciding what is good and what is bad, not the bible, because the bible doesn't tell me, it just gives options for me to cherry pick based on my beliefs, and my cultural upbringing. As is the same with what every other Christian is doing. So I would not really have a belief in the bible, but in what I myself feel is moral and right. So when I see people hiding behind the bible, in defense of bigotry, and immorality, I don’t blame their book, I blame them, because I know they choose what parts they want to defend, and choose what parts they want to ignore. E.g., “The bible says God hates fags, but women don’t actually have to kill and burn two pidgins every time they have their period”. They choose to follow what they follow because they are okay with it, because they are bigots, at least of those who follow those particular bigoted beliefs, or whatever other examples.

But it was this reality, this practice of reading the bible when I was younger as thought it were one hundred percent true that made it so clear that it is not. And to Yasmin's point, that atheist tend to read the bible as fundamentally true, (as I’ve just describe I did above), if I tried to read it for all the good, minus all the bad, it still fails, because (again, as I described above) I realized that I would be the one deciding what is good and what is bad, not “God” through the bible. I would be contorting myself in all manner of way to explain, and defend it. Just as apologist, creationist, fundamentalist, and your average Christian does, same as you are doing now. I know, because I’ve done it. True, I never believed, but I tried so hard to find a way to make it make sense so that I could believe that I was not surrounded by crazy people, but in the end, even for the believer, it’s just you deciding what you believe is true. Truth doesn’t come from the bible, its just you deciding whether it does or not, and if you do, it’s still you deciding what version of truth you think it’s saying in there. It’s all you, it has nothing to do with the bible. You could pick up the Bhagavad Gita, the Buddhist Sutras, the Tao Te Ching, the Illiad, or the Lord of the Rings, and pull out whatever truths you think you can find in there, and dismiss whatever evils you think are wrong, but it’s coming from you, not “God”, not the bible, from you.

That is my point this this post, and why I say you, Yasmin, accented that point. The Westboro group chooses what they choose, the responce by those in the video agains them is them choosing what they choose is right, you, Yasmin, choose what you choose is right, and that the point. That is what people do with the bible, but ironicly, the Westboro are closest to what it actually says, which is, in part, why many of us Atheist reject it, because the Westboros are closer to being correct about what it says, and you, Yasmin, actually reject what the bible says, at least for the parts that you'd rather lean to, but that is coming from you, NOT the bible, from YOU.

When people ask me that, “But what if the bible was true?” I explain that, that I’ve tried to read it that way and it itself made it impossible to square away. “God”, as distinct from the bible, is a different concept, but if we are talking about the bible itself or "God" as the bible decribes it, the more you study it, the less you can do with it. I think that’s why most Christians don’t actually read the bible and have no idea what it really says, because if you take it seriously, you can there for no longer take it seriously (unless you lie to yourself, or are stupid, hopefully “believers just lie to themselves). I never believed, but I did attempt to take it seriously, considering everyone else did (as a mental experiment anyway, not in practice), but in the end, it was the bible that did the best to prove itself wrong.

...
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05-12-2013, 12:53 PM
RE: Westboro Baptist Church to picket Paul Walker's funeral
Great explanation Raptor on one the biggest frustrations I have with all of these claims around the bible being the "perfect truth." I do not see you getting a good defense on this issue from Yasmin or anyone else for that matter. It is just plain impossible to reconcile holding the bible as divine truth with humans filtering it's content for their own sake.

If one chooses to cling to this notion of the bible as a collection of useful information from a loving god, then I would have to ask why? What reasons would you have to ignore all of the manipulation and moral conflicts needed to believe it all? You have to hand it to those WBC folks for sticking to their doctrine and following god's plan, but if that is wrong then what christian could say otherwise.

WBC = literal christians = bible is the "word" to follow = nutty, hateful bigots = bible is horrible = evil

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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