What’s the point of “God”?
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13-10-2013, 01:45 AM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
(13-10-2013 01:37 AM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  
(13-10-2013 01:29 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  My question is not, why "God" in relation to people. It's, why "God" in the first place.

Perhaps this will help illustrate my point better. Arguably "God" could have chose not to make people. Remove humans form the explanation of "God's" existence. If it makes it easier, image "God" never created people. Or even, never created the universe. If "he" is an eternal "God" then this is a possible scenario "that" could have happened. I'm asking, when considering "God" alone, in relation to nothing else, why would there even be a "God".

Why would a god exist outside of the universe? I suppose for the same reason the universe exists, it would be an accident.

Well for one, because according to Christian mythos "he" created the universe. The universe would have had a starting point, even according to the bible, but "God" would have been eternal. There for "he" would have existed for infinite time prior to the creation of the universe itself. Plus, Christians are always saying "God" exist out side of physical reality, but is also omnipresent as well. So that would put "him" both and outside of the universe...whatever that would mean.

(P.S., I edited that quote you replied to. I tried to post it from my phone, and it messed it all up, so it says something a little different now)

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13-10-2013, 01:53 AM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
(13-10-2013 12:37 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  That’s it. The whole question is in the subject header. What is the point of “God”?

I'm not sure I understand the question or even if it is coherent. Clearly to Jews, Muslims and Christians their God is a feature of reality and He is used as an answer to why/how questions (though this set has been and continues to shrink even for many theists).

If you are asking "how did humans even come to posit a God?" then you need to look into the anthropology of religion. In sum it took literally thousands of years for us to arrive at monotheism and we did so primarily for its apparent explanatory power. With Jews and Arabs we find the following temporal pattern:

animism -> polytheism -> henotheism -> monotheism

Quote:I mean, obviously there isn’t one, but from a Christian’s perspective, considering they do believe, what is the point, or purpose, or reason for “God”? Now I know the first thing they would say would be, something like, “he’s eternal” or “because he loves us” or “so that he could create us”, or some other non-answer.

For Christians and other theists deitiy is a brute fact of reality like our moon. Is it meaningful to ask what is the point of the planet Saturn?

Quote:My question is not, why did “God” create us, or how was “God” made. My question is, why? What is the purpose of a “God”, in the first place, universe aside. A universe, without a “god”, doesn’t require an explanation of why. How maybe, but not a why.

If a God were a fundamental feature of reality then why wouldn't make any sense for Him either.

Quote:But, as Christians believe all things have a purpose, and an answer of why, not just how, under a universe with a “God”…then why “God” in the first place, rather that no “God”? For example, an answer of, “God needed to exist to create the universe” answers, (where it true, which it is not) what was necessary for the universe to exist, according to Christian mythos. But that does not explain why “God” in the first place.

According to Christian myth God is the "first place" (he was so even in Aristotle's metaphysics).

Quote:What is the purpose of “God”?

That is an ambiguous question. What is the anthropological/sociological purpose of the concept of God? What human needs does the concept of God fulfill? Does the God hypothesis possess any explanatory power?

Quote:I really don’t know if I’m explaining the heart of my question well. It might be one of those things where, you yourself understand what you’re thinking so clearly its hard to tell if it’s not coming across. But this is a question I got stuck on at age seven and, for me, nothing else in religion could make sense unless I could get past this part. What is the point of there even being a “God” to begin with? There’s just this “God” who exist, just floating in eternal nothingness, for no apparent rhyme or reason, doing nothing for infinite time before getting to creating the universe. Just there existing,…for…the purpose of just…existing... Why?!

Are you asking "Why would such a being as Yahweh/Trinity exist?" ? That's a reasonable and coherent question. The Jewish and Christian answer is that he has revealed his existence to various persons and that's just how God happens to be.

Quote:And then, even when “he” does create it all…still, why? I know Christians will say, “Because he loved us before he even knew us” or some other nonsensical thing. I mean, I could kind of understand if “God” where a more petty, humanistic “god” like the Greco-Roman “gods” that where more just like giant, powerful, immortal people really. Still doesn’t explain the “why” of it’s existence, in the first place, part…but an petty human like “god” would make a little more sense as to why create people to play with. But an all powerful, knowledgeable, eternal, creator “God” that the bible would have us believe?

The proposed reasons vary somewhat between the three monotheistic faiths:

According to Judaism God made man to bestow kindness upon him.[1][2]
According to Christianity God made man to share his love and because we are part of his divine plan.[3][4]
According to Islam God created man to worship Him.[5][6]
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13-10-2013, 02:03 AM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
Again, not why based on humans, their needs, uses, or explanations. Rather, why based on "God", alone.

And again, I don't actually expect a real answer, because there isn't one. If you are actually coming up with an answer, then either you didn't understand the question, or I did not pose it well.

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13-10-2013, 02:10 AM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
(13-10-2013 01:29 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  If "God" is real, then "God" is real whether "he" ever created us or not. So "his" existence, if "he" were real, would not be dependent on an explanation based on human beings. The question is, why would he exist, on his own merit's? (obviously there is no actual answer to this, as it's not real)

Assuming He exists as defined by the three major faiths then He just is, He is the necessarily existent person. It would make sense then to ask why He created man, why He created the universe, because they are contingencies but since he is necessary asking "why?" of His existence doesn't make sense, he cannot not exist. That is true by virtue of how He has been defined. Your question doesn't make any more or less sense than asking "Why does the Green Lantern exist in the DC Universe, what is his point?" The Green Lantern doesn't have a why answer either only a how? What does it mean to ask "What is the purpose of the Green Lantern?" ? That too is an ambiguous question and its only meaningful interpretations are historical/anthropological/sociological.
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13-10-2013, 03:56 AM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
God is the explanation of the ignorant.

"Hey Frankie, I'm lookin at the stars in the sky and drinkin a brew and it hits me. How did all of this get here ?"
"Well Louie, I grew up in the catholic church, capish. They told me that this god fellow did it all and even though it sounds a little gay, he loves me"

"But Frankie, You know and I know that this god character is one evil son of bitch. He's a mafia boss plain and simple. You do as he says or find yourself in a very bad situation, if you know what I mean"
"Very true Louie, very true. Don't tell any of the fellas but I've been readin a few science magazines lately. You wouldn't believe what they got goin on in those magazines. I'm tellin ya, it would blow your freakin mind. Fo'get about it"

"Frankie, I always knew you were the smart one. You got it up here. The whole god thing seems contrived. I learned that word on my learn a word calendar that Joey got me for Christmas. It means deliberately created rather than arising naturally or spontaneously."

"I here ya Louie and frankly I gotta say, I find the explanations in science actually explain things. Sayin a god did it doesn't tell me anything. It just makes me ask more questions and still doesn't give me any answers. If the boss asks me who wacked Harry two noses, I better be able to tell him exactly how he was wacked and who done it. If I said some super invisible ninja jumped out of the shadows and did some ninja stuff and now Harry is dead, do you really think he would let me get away with an explanation like that." ?

"No Frankie he wouldn't. He wouldn't at all."
"Damn straight Louie, fo'get about it"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-10-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
Gods were created so the wise man, the shaman, the priest, the pope would have little need to contribute to the tribe and still be waited on hand and foot and in power since only he could know the mind of god. To question this you'll be outcasted, banished, or excommunicated. Today your ostracised if you question their authority. These "miracle workers" were only playing the role of the magician and using such trickery they fooled the tribesmen to show that they had supernatural powers. While they were in power they teach that magic is to be outlawed and such "witches" are to be put to death since they are rivals of the one in power. Today they don't need such trickery. (thats a lie, mega churches still oust demons and do faith healings)They have their followers in the fold so tight they can only see through their eyes alone. Everyone else outside of the group is to be looked on with disdainful eyes. Untrustworthy and such criticisms are met with righteous fury.
(huh, I could make a book out of this)
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13-10-2013, 05:42 PM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
(13-10-2013 12:37 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I sometimes think of this “bored” version of “God” and think of “him” looking down on the earth…or up on it, depending on how you look at it, and thinking, “I’m still bored…I know everything, so nothing is interesting or entertaining, because I already know it”. Then I just envision him giving up and aimlessly floating invisibly through space with no purpose because what could possibly interest him? He probably wishes he could die because he’s so bored.
Precisely. He could never find a joke funny, because he already knows the answer. He could never learn or discover anything because he knows it all, already.
If I took the best movie ever and forced myself to watch it 1,000 times, I'm sure I would come to hate the movie, it would hold no surprises, no interest, no lessons. Then if I were forced to continue watching it over and over for decades, for the rest of my life. I am sure that death would be a welcome escape from that torture.

Christians of course don't think about it from god's perspective. They think about themselves only. God is obliged to create human souls and fuse them with our bodies. God is obliged to watch us and take notes on whether we are good or bad, god is obliged to judge us and put good souls into heaven. God is obliged to listen to our prayers, to make a plan for our lives, To give us life lessons so we can learn and experience what we need to. God came to earth for us as a human and sacrficed himself so that we could live forever. God created us in his image.
Its all about us.
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13-10-2013, 06:42 PM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
What's the point of "God," you ask? Well, it can be summed up like this:

"There's a 500 headed monster living in your closet who watches everything you do, knows everything you think, and who will eat you immediately if you do not do everything I say to do."

That's about it.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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13-10-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
I think I understand the OP, it's often difficult to put these ideas into words.

I find that the concept of a god only makes sense in a human context, as soon as you look at the natural world as a whole or take the entire universe, god becomes a ludicrous idea. In a human context its fairly easy to picture a being concerned with our private lives, but look at the bigger picture and it soon becomes apparent that we don't even register on the scale of the universe.

Regardless of prayers, supposed messiahs, miracles and all that other bullshit, the universe just keeps on doing what it's been doing since before the earth or sun ever existed, let alone life.

In all of the 13.8 billion years this universe has existed, the modern god of Christianity has only been worshipped for about 4000 years. Not even a blip...

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13-10-2013, 07:39 PM
RE: What’s the point of “God”?
(13-10-2013 05:42 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-10-2013 12:37 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I sometimes think of this “bored” version of “God” and think of “him” looking down on the earth…or up on it, depending on how you look at it, and thinking, “I’m still bored…I know everything, so nothing is interesting or entertaining, because I already know it”. Then I just envision him giving up and aimlessly floating invisibly through space with no purpose because what could possibly interest him? He probably wishes he could die because he’s so bored.
Precisely. He could never find a joke funny, because he already knows the answer. He could never learn or discover anything because he knows it all, already.
If I took the best movie ever and forced myself to watch it 1,000 times, I'm sure I would come to hate the movie, it would hold no surprises, no interest, no lessons. Then if I were forced to continue watching it over and over for decades, for the rest of my life. I am sure that death would be a welcome escape from that torture.

Christians of course don't think about it from god's perspective. They think about themselves only. God is obliged to create human souls and fuse them with our bodies. God is obliged to watch us and take notes on whether we are good or bad, god is obliged to judge us and put good souls into heaven. God is obliged to listen to our prayers, to make a plan for our lives, To give us life lessons so we can learn and experience what we need to. God came to earth for us as a human and sacrficed himself so that we could live forever. God created us in his image.
Its all about us.

Finally someone got where I was going with that! Thanks, Stevil!



If you take the Christian concept of "God", and only concern yourself with "God", and not worry at all about "his" interaction with people, then what's his deal? If "God", according to Christian mythos, is eternal, and is not a creation of man, but exist in his own right, then man does not matter at all in the context of understanding "God" "himself".

Some of you are being to literal. I understand that man created "God", not the other way around. And without man "God" makes no sense, and has no purpose, or meaning. But that right there is actually my very point. If, hypothetically they were right, and the all "omni"s "God" were real, then his existence is not predicated on us, are wants, fears, needs, or illusions. "He" would have existed even if he decided never to make us.

Here is the reverse of John Lennon's song. Imagine there are no people, no earth, no sky. But again, imagine "God" is actually real, but never created people. "God's" purpose would not be to give priest a way to control the population, there are no priest, it would not be to give us someway to explain the unknown, there would be no people to need a way to explain it, it would not be to provide people with a false sense of comfort or source of morality, there would be no people to need those things.

Again, imagine there actually are no people, at all, ever, or ever will be, so answers based on human needs, or human fabrications are not possible, because there are no people to base those things on. Pretend, with me, for just a moment, for the sake of this thought, that this is true, and that "God" is in fact real, and there are no people to justify "his" existence. If Christians are right, and "God" does in fact exist, then he would exist whether we exist or not. So an explanation of why "God" exist, if "he" really did, would be wholly separated from any explanation connected to human beings in anyway. So in that light, why would "God" exist in the first place?

Understand, I am not looking for an actual answer to this question, because there is none. And that's the point. "God" would have had to come first, then make human beings for any of the explanations anyone ever gives for the reason for "God's" existence or purpose.

But "God", if he exist, should have an explanation for existing separate from anything related to humans. If the only way "God's" existence could be explained, by the believer, in relation to humans, and not for separate unrelated reason to humans, then the only reason, there for the only way, "God" could exist, even if "he" were real, would be if "he" created humans. If that's the case, that would imply, if he never did, then there would be no purpose to "his" existence, and so he couldn't exist unless "he" did eventually, after an eternal amount of time, got around to creating us. But that's putting the cart before the horse. So if "God's" existence is predicated on humans being created, then "God" had no choice about creating humans. Thus not all powerful.

However, that does not make sense even if "God" was actually real. So either "God" would need some explanation to his existence (and my question is, what would that be?), having no context to humans, or if creation of humans is the only way to explain "God" then "he" could never have existed in the first place, so any answer based on human beings would not answer the question at all, and misses the point of the question.

Of course, I already realize it's a fatal question, in that there is no "God" there for no answer. But it's a logic puzzle, a koan.

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