What Am I?
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19-01-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: What Am I?
(19-01-2016 11:10 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 11:07 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  "Thoughts are the only known true reality" (not Solipsism)

Except that this is wrong as you have no way of knowing if your thoughts are real, or yours, or even a thing that CAN exist.

The fact that asserting thought is itself presuppositional was something I was hoping someone might bring up...

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19-01-2016, 11:20 AM
RE: What Am I?
(19-01-2016 11:15 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 11:10 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Except that this is wrong as you have no way of knowing if your thoughts are real, or yours, or even a thing that CAN exist.

The fact that asserting thought is itself presuppositional was something I was hoping someone might bring up...

I think it was alluded to by Whiskey. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2016, 11:21 AM
RE: What Am I?
Hit your hand with a hammer dickhead.

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19-01-2016, 11:21 AM
RE: What Am I?
(19-01-2016 11:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 11:15 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The fact that asserting thought is itself presuppositional was something I was hoping someone might bring up...

I think it was alluded to by Whiskey. Consider

To be fair I just skimmed both threads when I saw how long and stupid they were. He may very well have brought it up. He may very well have brought it up repeatedly.

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19-01-2016, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2016 11:43 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: What Am I?
(19-01-2016 11:13 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 11:07 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  You are probably referring to this line:
"Thoughts are the only known true reality" (not Solipsism)
This is not the same as:
"Thoughts are the only true reality" (Solipsism)

No. Both are varieties of solipsism. The latter is strong metaphysical solipsism, but the former is methodological solipsism.
I never said "self is the only known thing to exist"
I said "thought is the only known thing to exist"
I do not even make the claim "my thoughts" which is why I am in no way remotely close to being a Solipsist.
You somehow incorrectly inferred the latter statement to mean the former without observing the difference. Even when I go through great efforts to distance the two points by using the term "thought awareness" people's bias against Solpsism would condemn anything even remotely close to it.

If you are uncertain what some of the terms I use mean to me at least give me the benefit of the doubt to explain it now.
When I speak of thoughts & self awareness it encompasses all things I interact with through my 5 senses. If you can't see how my reality, my 5 senses and my self awareness are all intertwined then there is nothing more I could say that could convince you that I am not a Solipsist.
If you in any way follow my train of thought then read on.
In numerous responses here I have repeated "anything that falls within the subset of my self aware reality I know certainly exists". This simply means if I can touch, smell, taste, hear or see it then I believe it absolutely exists. If you still don't think these 2 statements mean the same thing to me then at least accept the latter as the more accurate depiction of my view.

In this regard I do not believe that the "self is all that can be known to exist" nor will you ever see me post that here.

Experience is the key ingredient for me to believe anything exists.
Is this such a hard key to swallow even for an Atheist community?
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19-01-2016, 11:43 AM
RE: What Am I?
Hit your hand with a hammer.
Or are you afraid?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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19-01-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: What Am I?
(19-01-2016 11:43 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Hit your hand with a hammer.
Or are you afraid?
It would prove the hammer an pain exist for me.
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19-01-2016, 11:51 AM
RE: What Am I?
(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 11:13 AM)cjlr Wrote:  No. Both are varieties of solipsism. The latter is strong metaphysical solipsism, but the former is methodological solipsism.
I never said "self is the only known thing to exist"
I said "thought is the only known thing to exist"
I do not even make the claim "my thoughts" which is why I am in no way remotely close to being a Solipsist.

That's nice.

Has nothing to do with how solipsism is actually defined, though.

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  You somehow incorrectly inferred the latter statement to mean the former without observing the difference.

Nope. I explicitly differentiated them.
(here, I'll do it again: strong metaphysical versus methodological. See how the words are different?)

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Even when I go through great efforts to distance the two points by using the term "thought awareness" people's bias against Solpsism would condemn anything even remotely close to it.

You are not using the prevailing accepted definition of solipsism. I think it might be helpful for you to consult the literature.

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If you are uncertain what some of the terms I use mean to me at least give me the benefit of the doubt to explain it now.

Before we get to that, do you accept that your idiosyncratic use of commonly accepted terminology makes it much less likely that anyone else will immediately understand you?

Because, you've done that repeatedly...

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  When I speak of thoughts & self awareness it encompasses all things I interact with through my 5 senses. If you can't see how my reality, my 5 senses and my self awareness are all intertwined then there is nothing more I could say that could convince you that I am not a Solipsist.

You could not convince me you were not a methodological solipsist. Because that is the definition of methodological solipsism.

Incidentally, "five senses" is an extremely outmoded model.

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If you in anyway follow my train of thought then read on.
In numerous responses here I have repeated anything that falls within the subset of my self aware reality I know certainly exists. This simply means if I can touch, smell, taste, hear or see it then I believe it absolutely exists. If you still don't think these 2 statements mean the same thing to me then at least accept the latter as the more accurate depiction of my view.

That's still solipsism.

Furthermore you haven't sufficiently defined sensory experience. There is no such thing as pure input, so what counts as seeing something, for example? Not to mention how your prior knowledge and assumptions inescapably shape your perceptions. What level of abstraction and interpetation still counts as seeing?

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  In this regard I do not believe that the "self is all that can be known to exist" nor will you ever see me post that here.

Experience is the key ingredient for me to believe anything exists.
Is this such a hard key to swallow even for an Atheist community?

What's hard to swallow is your refusal to accept common terminology.

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19-01-2016, 01:01 PM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2016 01:16 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: What Am I?
(19-01-2016 11:51 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I never said "self is the only known thing to exist"
I said "thought is the only known thing to exist"
I do not even make the claim "my thoughts" which is why I am in no way remotely close to being a Solipsist.

That's nice.

Has nothing to do with how solipsism is actually defined, though.

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  You somehow incorrectly inferred the latter statement to mean the former without observing the difference.

Nope. I explicitly differentiated them.
(here, I'll do it again: strong metaphysical versus methodological. See how the words are different?)

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Even when I go through great efforts to distance the two points by using the term "thought awareness" people's bias against Solpsism would condemn anything even remotely close to it.

You are not using the prevailing accepted definition of solipsism. I think it might be helpful for you to consult the literature.

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If you are uncertain what some of the terms I use mean to me at least give me the benefit of the doubt to explain it now.

Before we get to that, do you accept that your idiosyncratic use of commonly accepted terminology makes it much less likely that anyone else will immediately understand you?

Because, you've done that repeatedly...

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  When I speak of thoughts & self awareness it encompasses all things I interact with through my 5 senses. If you can't see how my reality, my 5 senses and my self awareness are all intertwined then there is nothing more I could say that could convince you that I am not a Solipsist.

You could not convince me you were not a methodological solipsist. Because that is the definition of methodological solipsism.

Incidentally, "five senses" is an extremely outmoded model.

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If you in anyway follow my train of thought then read on.
In numerous responses here I have repeated anything that falls within the subset of my self aware reality I know certainly exists. This simply means if I can touch, smell, taste, hear or see it then I believe it absolutely exists. If you still don't think these 2 statements mean the same thing to me then at least accept the latter as the more accurate depiction of my view.

That's still solipsism.

Furthermore you haven't sufficiently defined sensory experience. There is no such thing as pure input, so what counts as seeing something, for example? Not to mention how your prior knowledge and assumptions inescapably shape your perceptions. What level of abstraction and interpetation still counts as seeing?

(19-01-2016 11:39 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  In this regard I do not believe that the "self is all that can be known to exist" nor will you ever see me post that here.

Experience is the key ingredient for me to believe anything exists.
Is this such a hard key to swallow even for an Atheist community?

What's hard to swallow is your refusal to accept common terminology.
Not if your interpretation of common terminology is not defined anywhere in the common terminology.
The terminology is perfect, it's when you add sub classes that aren't defined by the common terminology that confuses things.
Just make a new class instead of trying to make a circle fit in a square hole.

Eg. Solipsism is defined as belief that the self is all that can be known to exist.
Yet you somehow classify the people who believe in the existence of things other than themselves as Solipsists.
How can belief in the existence of things other than oneself by classified as Solipsism.
Nothing is wrong with the definition, it's the way you apply it that just doesn't make sense.

How do you tell the difference between a Solipsist that believes in the existence of things from personal experience, an atheist that believes in the existence of things from personal experience & a theist that believes in the existence of things from personal experience?
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19-01-2016, 01:47 PM
RE: What Am I?
(19-01-2016 11:15 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 11:10 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Except that this is wrong as you have no way of knowing if your thoughts are real, or yours, or even a thing that CAN exist.

The fact that asserting thought is itself presuppositional was something I was hoping someone might bring up...

Post #7 http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid930565

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