What Are You Listening To?
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18-06-2012, 04:10 PM
RE: What Are You Listening To?
TrulyX,

If I'm missing the quality of every aspect (of what?) that goes into hip-hop (sic), then so be it. As far as ignorance of music in general, probably not. Many years of study under some damned good teachers, decades of performing professionally onstage and as a studio musician, as well as a bit of teaching, make me think that I may not be an "expert" on music, but I know a couple of things. I may be pretentious; I've been called worse. Often, deservedly so.

No matter how you slice, dice, or sautee it, playing someone else's record on a turntable does not make one a musician. Try & discuss music theory with the vast majority of hip-hop "artists", and you'll find yourself in a one-sided conversation.

The assertion that you only accept one excuse for not liking rap... Now, THAT, sir, is pretentious. How extensive has your formal music education been, the repetoire of instruments you've learned to proficiency? In short, what is your resume that qualifies you to saying why or why not someone can dislike or refuse to catagorize something that is being pigeonholed by lay persons, by and large, who themselves have no standard baseline of qualifications that are recognizable to the larger (music) community as validating their ability to objectively judge the validity said material?

Okay, pretentious & gratuitous use of big words aside, I've also done some amount of time as an audio recording & mixing engineer, with some experience in analog & digital recording, editing, and mixing. I've not only constructed songs from loops that I've made, I've created (from scratch) the samples I used to create these loops. My point with this is that I have a working knowledge of how drum/sample loops are constructed and used. Whether creating an entire framework within Pro Tools or flying in loops onstage via Ableton, digital editing & pressing "play" at the appropriate time does not make one a musician.
If you cannot sing or play an instrument, you are not a musician. That's a pretty objective viewpoint, not colored in any way by my personal taste for sampled loops of other people's work created by a popular sub-culture du jour glorifying crime, destitution, prison life, or other social dysfunctions.

This isn't a racist or pretentious viewpoint. For instance, I hate country music. I mean, with few exceptions, I detest and abhor it. I don't like the stereotypes it propagates, the messages it sends, and it generally strikes me like fingernails on a chalkboard. However, it is classifiable in every way as music. Beat detective and Auto-tune may make crappy musicians & singers sound much better than they are, but it is music. If you aren't playing a musical instrument and/or singing, you aren't a musician.
You might be called a technician, in the same way a mix or recording engineer would be. Or a proficient disk jockey at a radio station. It takes ability, practice, and sometimes training to be good at it. Still doesn't make one a musician.

If you think that you're somehow more qualified than me to tell me that my opinion of hip-hop/rap is invalid and without merit, or believe that the only reason I disqualify it as music is that I cannot relate to it culturally, I'm telling you that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
--------------------------
Now, you got me on The Roots. As opposed to many other acts classified as hip-hop, they play the instruments. They make music. Hell, I'll tell you that ?uest is a bad man. That point is yours. Smile




(17-06-2012 02:59 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  "Digital editing, copying others' music, programming a drum machine and talking semi-rhythmically." That comment is kind of completely missing the quality of every aspect that goes into hip-hop, regardless of whether or not you want to call rap a form of music. It might also show an ignorance of music in general, if not just a view rooted in pretentiousness.

The only excuse I accept for not liking rap music is the inability to relate to it. Rap music is born out of the culture of Hip-Hop and things of, or related to, that culture, and not so much out of music. So, there are tons of things that are specific to certain people familiar with, or part of, certain cultures that really aren't meant for those that don't understand or relate to those things. Things like DJing, sampling, MCing, inner city/street environment, etc, are all part of the content and substance of the music in a large way. The music that we call rap is a product of Hip-Hop culture which wasn't ever set out to form a new genre of music (and still exists separate from the music). Despite rap being taken over by pop, just like every previous genre, and the mainstream content now being geared almost exclusively toward selling records, rap that is true to the culture it came from is inside out i.e. here is my expression, my story, my way. It came from the individual, and wasn't specifically/exclusively for others to hear/see but just to put out the expression, and if others like it, fine. It's just like other genres in that regard just a hell of a lot more specific in comparison.

That's why I don't expect anyone to like rap music; but given the amount of people who prior to hearing rap (of both good and pretty bad quality) had absolutely nothing to do with, and didn't relate to, any of the cultural influences, but after listening become immersed in it, I find it hard to believe when anyone disregards it, regardless of the reason.
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18-06-2012, 05:21 PM
RE: What Are You Listening To?


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18-06-2012, 07:54 PM
RE: What Are You Listening To?
(18-06-2012 04:10 PM)DannyW Wrote:  Now, you got me on The Roots. As opposed to many other acts classified as hip-hop, they play the instruments. They make music. Hell, I'll tell you that ?uest is a bad man. That point is yours. Smile

First of all, they are just one of the few bands. There are a lot of other individuals who play instruments and/or use live instrumentation, both with and without samples, in hip-hop. Instruments are not required, and for the most part, I hate when they are used, but a lot of people who produce hip hop play.

The thing about that is the ?uestlove considers J Dilla (a guy you don't consider a real musician) as on of, if not his biggest, influences. Not only as a drummer, but as an artist. First words: "My biggest influence".

That is just one of many interviews you'll find of him, and you can find tons more both with ?uest, as well as tons of other guys, that are by your definition are "real musicians", that drool over J Dilla (the guy you don't consider a real musician) as a huge influence on what they do. Hell, the entire ElectricLady Studio sessions albums, as well as others, part of the Soulquarian movement that produced some, in my opinion and still fitting to your definition, great music that was all, for the most part, produced and centered around the style and "sound" of this "un"real musicians "un"real music.

The thing is, I don't think you disagree with me, as much as you just want to throw hip-hop, as a whole, under the bus.

I said it isn't music by specific definition; you gave that definition.

Quote:If you cannot sing or play an instrument, you are not a musician.

I assume you meant in the creation of because a lot of hip hop artist, both rappers and beatmakers, sing and play instruments.

You don't have to call it music. I'd to an extent agree, but I think that is a pretentious and stingy definition.

I said you were pretentious, you pretty much agreed, and then went on basically proving my point.

Quote:I may be pretentious; I've been called worse. Often, deservedly so.

Quote:The assertion that you only accept one excuse for not liking rap...

I really don't even know how you found beef with that. What I explained was so broad it was almost equivalent to: "because I don't like it".

Whether or not you call it music wasn't part of my point. I don't know what you would call it, but if for some reason you don't like it, given that the range of lyrical content is basically every subject, it widely extensive, and the beats do produce sound drawn from samples of many different genres and influence and the produced sound would pretty much have to be pleasing to the ear if you liked the music in general, I'd have to say that if you don't like it, it must be because you don't like the cultural influences that rap is made up of i.e. you don't like rapping or you don't like sampling.

There there are these comments.....

Quote:playing someone else's record on a turntable does not make one a musician

I've not only constructed songs from loops that I've made, I've created (from scratch) the samples I used to create these loops

My point with this is that I have a working knowledge of how drum/sample loops are constructed and used.

Whether creating an entire framework within Pro Tools or flying in loops onstage via Ableton, digital editing & pressing "play" at the appropriate time does not make one a musician.

glorifying crime, destitution, prison life, or other social dysfunctions

This isn't a racist or pretentious viewpoint.

believe that the only reason I disqualify it as music is that I cannot relate to it culturally

That was kind of what I was getting at by the comments in the first paragraph of what you quoted, as well as missing the point given that I said "regardless of whether or not you want to call rap a form of music" and what I meant by "ignorance".

It was because you mentioned "drum machines" and "copying". Depending on how you define copying, you might not consider damn near anything music. And not only are drum machines used for programming outside of rap, but referring to rap, you should have said sampler/sequencer.

If you are one of those kids who try to get your drums sounding like this guys with a drum machine, or on a DAW, you'll be doing a lot of head scratching and be very frustrated. Also, to an elitist hip-hop head using a DAW to make a beat and/or not using vinyl to sample from would be a major violation and disrespect to the culture.

As far as copying, would knowing classical theory and using the chords and structures that others derived and came up with be copying? Damn near every musician draws influence from their favorite artists and/or the people who taught them to play, so would those influences in their styles be copying? Would you get pissed at your piano for producing the same sounds that people have been making music with for years? What about chord progression? Jazz and Blues have defined chord progressions that people in music have been following for years and are, in some ways, the basis of tons of different types of music. A lot of music is based on riffs and progressions that are used over and over in just slightly different ways by different people.

My point there is more than a lot of music today and throughout history was made on what you could call "copying". The ability to play an instrument seems to be your only gripe. Is that because you, yourself play, and want to put yourself above other people in importance?

When people make beats, they pull samples from records that would be unknown to damn near everyone today without having been sampled. Some are parts of songs that you would have to sit around and scratch your head for hours to find on the record, then days or years, trying to figure out how they were able to even hear and know to use that, let alone how they converted it into the beat. You have guys basically taking individual notes, breaks, and chords out of songs, and off of separate records, sometimes in different keys/pitch/time, and re-arranging them to make a completely different sounding piece altogether. The notion that these same guys can't be considered to be same as others just because they used samples instead of playing a similar progression out on an instrument is beyond me; it has to involve a definition to specifically exclude them.

I'm not saying you have to mention J Dilla in the same sentence as Herbie Hancock, but you have to give some respect in my opinion.

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18-06-2012, 09:25 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2012 09:35 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What Are You Listening To?
(18-06-2012 01:22 PM)Leela Wrote:  


There's someone I wouldn't take on in the dohyō. She and I both know she could just kick my ass and have her way with me. ... Wait, I think I'm married to her.Blush




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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18-06-2012, 09:39 PM
RE: What Are You Listening To?




I know this was featured on a recent episode of Family Guy, but I don't care,
I loved this song before that. I rock out to this. Hard.
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18-06-2012, 09:47 PM
RE: What Are You Listening To?
(18-06-2012 09:39 PM)Goddammit Wrote:  



I know this was featured on a recent episode of Family Guy, but I don't care,
I loved this song before that. I rock out to this. Hard.
I actually LoL'd when I saw this because I had just visited the "How Old Are You?" thread and see that you're 25. I was in college when this was popular. Big Grin

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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18-06-2012, 09:48 PM
RE: What Are You Listening To?
(18-06-2012 09:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  There's someone I wouldn't take on in the dohyō. She and I both know she could just kick my ass and have her way with me. ... Wait, I think I'm married to her.Blush
It's good that ManlyGirl can put you in your place, but I sure hope her voice doesn't sound as if she's been smoking 3 packs a day for the past 30 years. Confused

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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18-06-2012, 09:49 PM
RE: What Are You Listening To?
Yeah I don't even think I was alive when this song came out, but I still love the classics what can I say.
(18-06-2012 09:47 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(18-06-2012 09:39 PM)Goddammit Wrote:  



I know this was featured on a recent episode of Family Guy, but I don't care,
I loved this song before that. I rock out to this. Hard.
I actually LoL'd when I saw this because I had just visited the "How Old Are You?" thread and see that you're 25. I was in college when this was popular. Big Grin
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18-06-2012, 10:26 PM (This post was last modified: 18-06-2012 11:43 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: What Are You Listening To?
(18-06-2012 09:48 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(18-06-2012 09:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  There's someone I wouldn't take on in the dohyō. She and I both know she could just kick my ass and have her way with me. ... Wait, I think I'm married to her.Blush
It's good that ManlyGirl can put you in your place, but I sure hope her voice doesn't sound as if she's been smoking 3 packs a day for the past 30 years. Confused

I'd like to see you try to tell tell that to her face, brother. Big Grin

Cry baby, you goddam hellbound fool. Wink




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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19-06-2012, 03:13 AM
RE: What Are You Listening To?
(18-06-2012 01:37 PM)kim Wrote:  Sister Janis! Heart

However - I'd not heard this version with all those other insturments. I only have her singing this acapella.

LUCYLeela -you got some 'splainin' to do. Tongue
haven't heard it with instruments before, either. but it's not bad, is it heh

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