What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
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08-02-2018, 03:01 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2018 05:53 PM by Aliza.)
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(08-02-2018 03:35 AM)RBMG Wrote:  It would also be interesting to hear from former Jews/Muslims and hear about what contradictions they like in their respective holy books.... granted the Torah is simply Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy... Still I think it'd be cool to hear from all walks on this one.

The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy in another language and the numerical count and root meanings of the words matter in understanding the message. These nuances are not taken into consideration when translating the Torah into English or any other language that would generally used by Christians. That being the case, there may be contradictions that Christians or atheists from Christian backgrounds see that Jews do not see.
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08-02-2018, 03:55 PM
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(08-02-2018 02:12 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  I tend to as of late look to the claims of God's goodness and the examples of God's not being good. A whole nest of verses. God hardens hearts (Romans 11), decides who is saved and not saved, God the divine potter, (Romans 9) versus scatter verses proclaiming God is just, fair, merciful and compassionate.

or perhaps the Gospels 5 different tales of what happened as Jesus arose from the dead (plus Acts).

The 2 different infant narratives of Matthew and Luke. The Bible is all a target rich environment.

I always liked how it says if you don't believe the right thing, god will send you a "strong delusion" that you'll believe, which is similar to the hardening of Pharoah's heart. Again, the mental gymnastics to condone that is hilarious. And another example of something that if it was a human doing it, they would call it sin, but since it's god doing it, it's all good.
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08-02-2018, 07:04 PM
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(08-02-2018 03:01 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy in another language and the numerical count and root meanings of the words matter in understanding the message. These nuances are not taken into consideration when translating the Torah into English or any other language that would generally used by Christians. That being the case, there may be contradictions that Christians or atheists from Christian backgrounds see that Jews do not see.
Seeing as how one only needs a basic grasp of Hebrew to convert to Judaism, I highly doubt the translation changes a whole lot. I think where things differ is it seems like a lot of Jews now days are very lenient in their observance of "the laws." Granted there are some English words that do not exist in Hebrew and vice-versa. Still, not really sure what you're even trying to get at (other than taking the chance to correct me that the Torah is technically in Hebrew... but.. ok?), I doubt there is so much lost in translation that it changes the text to any significant degree.

Regardless, in response to everyone else, it's interesting to see all of the different contradictions everyone chooses. It's also interesting to see the types of mental gymnastics required to reconcile all of these different types of contradictions. The biggest response to all of these things (many of which I've looked into myself before) is "context!" Context is used to explain away many, if not most, contradictions that occur in the Bible.

It goes to show the intellectual dishonesty involved in taking the Bible literally in any way, shape or form.
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08-02-2018, 09:02 PM
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(08-02-2018 07:04 PM)RBMG Wrote:  Seeing as how one only needs a basic grasp of Hebrew to convert to Judaism, I highly doubt the translation changes a whole lot. I think where things differ is it seems like a lot of Jews now days are very lenient in their observance of "the laws." Granted there are some English words that do not exist in Hebrew and vice-versa. Still, not really sure what you're even trying to get at (other than taking the chance to correct me that the Torah is technically in Hebrew... but.. ok?), I doubt there is so much lost in translation that it changes the text to any significant degree.

I will defer to your knowledge on the subject of Jewish conversions and translation accuracy from Hebrew to English. Welcome to the forum.
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09-02-2018, 10:25 AM
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(08-02-2018 09:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(08-02-2018 07:04 PM)RBMG Wrote:  Seeing as how one only needs a basic grasp of Hebrew to convert to Judaism, I highly doubt the translation changes a whole lot. I think where things differ is it seems like a lot of Jews now days are very lenient in their observance of "the laws." Granted there are some English words that do not exist in Hebrew and vice-versa. Still, not really sure what you're even trying to get at (other than taking the chance to correct me that the Torah is technically in Hebrew... but.. ok?), I doubt there is so much lost in translation that it changes the text to any significant degree.

I will defer to your knowledge on the subject of Jewish conversions and translation accuracy from Hebrew to English. Welcome to the forum.

I admire your restraint.

Tongue
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09-02-2018, 10:36 AM
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(09-02-2018 10:25 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(08-02-2018 09:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I will defer to your knowledge on the subject of Jewish conversions and translation accuracy from Hebrew to English. Welcome to the forum.

I admire your restraint.

Tongue

It's not so much restraint as it is just a loaded class schedule. If my input isn't needed, I've got plenty of other shit to do right now.
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09-02-2018, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2018 11:13 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(08-02-2018 09:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(08-02-2018 07:04 PM)RBMG Wrote:  Seeing as how one only needs a basic grasp of Hebrew to convert to Judaism, I highly doubt the translation changes a whole lot. I think where things differ is it seems like a lot of Jews now days are very lenient in their observance of "the laws." Granted there are some English words that do not exist in Hebrew and vice-versa. Still, not really sure what you're even trying to get at (other than taking the chance to correct me that the Torah is technically in Hebrew... but.. ok?), I doubt there is so much lost in translation that it changes the text to any significant degree.

I will defer to your knowledge on the subject of Jewish conversions and translation accuracy from Hebrew to English. Welcome to the forum.

I've always been interested in the "literary" angle ... and how one culture changed and re-interpreted the common concepts floating around at the time. Of course modern Western .. maybe even "American" Fundamentalism took literalism to the extreme. As "literature", the texts that ended up in The Torah of Moses, are pretty interesting. So I've always gotten where you're coming from. Most Christians and ex-Christians today have no clue how scholars approach these texts, and their syncretic origins.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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09-02-2018, 11:34 AM
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(08-02-2018 03:55 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  I always liked how it says if you don't believe the right thing, god will send you a "strong delusion" that you'll believe, which is similar to the hardening of Pharoah's heart. Again, the mental gymnastics to condone that is hilarious. And another example of something that if it was a human doing it, they would call it sin, but since it's god doing it, it's all good.

You get this type of weird, Orwellian double-speak any time a contradiction comes up. A rational person will acknowledge the contradiction and drop one of the two opposing premises. An apologist will redefine words to the point of being meaningless, but in such a way that they get to feel good.

You can see this with the Trinity (Jesus is both God and the son of God), and with the whole works vs grace thing for getting into heaven. In the first case, you say Jesus is the son of God (as in, God the Father) who is part of a corporate entity known as God (as in, God the Trinity). In the second case you don't get into heaven because of works (cuz the Bible says so), but certain actions (but totally not called "works") are required.

It's so disingenuous. If the question you're ultimately asking yourself is "how can I make everything I believe so pointless so that I can keep on believing it?", you should probably reconsider your basic epistemology.
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09-02-2018, 11:41 AM
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(09-02-2018 11:34 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You get this type of weird, Orwellian double-speak any time a contradiction comes up. A rational person will acknowledge the contradiction and drop one of the two opposing premises. An apologist will redefine words to the point of being meaningless, but in such a way that they get to feel good.

You can see this with the Trinity (Jesus is both God and the son of God), and with the whole works vs grace thing for getting into heaven. In the first case, you say Jesus is the son of God (as in, God the Father) who is part of a corporate entity known as God (as in, God the Trinity). In the second case you don't get into heaven because of works (cuz the Bible says so), but certain actions (but totally not called "works") are required.

It's so disingenuous. If the question you're ultimately asking yourself is "how can I make everything I believe so pointless so that I can keep on believing it?", you should probably reconsider your basic epistemology.

Apologists' rationalizations merely make the point that what the Bible seems to say is not what it means, which defeats the whole concept of scriptural inerrancy.

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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09-02-2018, 11:51 AM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2018 12:34 PM by Grasshopper.)
RE: What Are Your Favorite Contradictions in the Bible, Torah, etc.?
(09-02-2018 11:41 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  
(09-02-2018 11:34 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You get this type of weird, Orwellian double-speak any time a contradiction comes up. A rational person will acknowledge the contradiction and drop one of the two opposing premises. An apologist will redefine words to the point of being meaningless, but in such a way that they get to feel good.

You can see this with the Trinity (Jesus is both God and the son of God), and with the whole works vs grace thing for getting into heaven. In the first case, you say Jesus is the son of God (as in, God the Father) who is part of a corporate entity known as God (as in, God the Trinity). In the second case you don't get into heaven because of works (cuz the Bible says so), but certain actions (but totally not called "works") are required.

It's so disingenuous. If the question you're ultimately asking yourself is "how can I make everything I believe so pointless so that I can keep on believing it?", you should probably reconsider your basic epistemology.

Apologists' rationalizations merely make the point that what the Bible seems to say is not what it means, which defeats the whole concept of scriptural inerrancy.

Yeah, that just kills me: "The Bible means exactly what it says, except when it contradicts itself -- then it means something else." They think they can have it both ways.
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