What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-09-2013, 12:13 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(23-09-2013 11:32 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 09:20 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  But I DO control the neurons in my brain. Depending on what I decide to think on, neurons will fire in different parts of my brain.

The solidity of objects is not more of an illusion than the "empty space" on the atomic level. The solid perception is validated when we hit a wall with our fists.
The "empty space" perception is validated by shooting tiny particles at a wall.


No, you don't control them, any more than you can control the beating of your heart or the release of your hormones or adrenaline. Your thoughts, consciousness, memories, and experiences can have an effect on those neurons, but even then you cannot be sure of what affect and to what extent. Are you making red blood cells right now? Your body is. Are you responsible for the decision to do this? I don't think so, and if your body stopped doing this, you would be a victim of biology and not of your own freewill.
With free will, we do not mean COMPLETE control. I do not claim that I can make my neurons do whatever I want. But I do control them to a large extent. If I think of a tree, I force my neurons to act consistently with the thought of a tree.

If you drive a car, you do not control every moving part in the car. You are not even aware of all the parts that move in your car. Yet, the car does what you want it to do. You are IN CONTROL of your car.

So think of your body as a car. You cannot control each part individually, but as a whole, it acts as you want it to (to a large extent, that is).
Quote:I could ask you what your favorite videogame, or movie, or book is. I would ask you this and then after second, thoughts will just start to arise out of your subconscious. You don't have control over whichever of the hundreds (if not thousands) of possible choices you are aware of that will ultimately arise. Say you picked a movie like Star Wars. Well, why didn't you pick one of the other movies you had been thinking about? Why did you choose Star Wars over Die Hard or Terminator? Why didn't you choose another movie that your are aware exists, like Jurassic Park or Independence Day, but that didn't happen to arise in your thoughts?
I picked Star Wars, because that is what I picked. I have the free will to choose how I want to answer your question, but that does not mean I can, or have to justify my choice. There does not have to be a reason why I picked Star Wars.
Quote:If you do not know what your brain is going to do next, you are not in control of your brain. The same reasoning applies to a soul if one wishes to posit one.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 02:18 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-09-2013 09:18 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-09-2013 08:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Pleasy's a fucking kid with no background in basic shit.


Also keep in mind that PJ CAN'T admit that there might be something other than 'freewill' determining our decisions and actions, because that is one of the cornerstones of monotheism. It is one of the last attempted justification for the Hell he believes in. It becomes impossible to not see Hell as anything but the nonexistent capricious farce that it is once you admit that people's decision and actions that would send people there are not entirely 100% under their control or authored by them. If we do not have absolute control over our thoughts processes and decision making, then it destroys the 'freewill' or 'self damnation' defense of Hell.

So he will argue until he's blue in the face, regardless of any evidence, in favor of absolute 'freewill'; because that's what his dogma requires of him.

Um, KC believes in predestination, and believes in the same eternal destinations (2) as I do, so there is no malice aforethought here. I could believe in predestination if it's supported.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 03:40 PM
 
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(23-09-2013 02:18 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Um, KC believes in predestination, and believes in the same eternal destinations (2) as I do, so there is no malice aforethought here. I could believe in predestination if it's supported.

Romans 8:29-30,
Romans 9:11-22,
2 Timothy 1:9,
2 Thessalonians 2:11-13,
Ephesians 1:4-5,
Jude 4,
[...]
Quote this message in a reply
23-09-2013, 08:41 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2013 02:59 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(23-09-2013 12:13 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 11:32 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No, you don't control them, any more than you can control the beating of your heart or the release of your hormones or adrenaline. Your thoughts, consciousness, memories, and experiences can have an effect on those neurons, but even then you cannot be sure of what affect and to what extent. Are you making red blood cells right now? Your body is. Are you responsible for the decision to do this? I don't think so, and if your body stopped doing this, you would be a victim of biology and not of your own freewill.
With free will, we do not mean COMPLETE control. I do not claim that I can make my neurons do whatever I want. But I do control them to a large extent. If I think of a tree, I force my neurons to act consistently with the thought of a tree.

If you drive a car, you do not control every moving part in the car. You are not even aware of all the parts that move in your car. Yet, the car does what you want it to do. You are IN CONTROL of your car.

So think of your body as a car. You cannot control each part individually, but as a whole, it acts as you want it to (to a large extent, that is).
Quote:I could ask you what your favorite videogame, or movie, or book is. I would ask you this and then after second, thoughts will just start to arise out of your subconscious. You don't have control over whichever of the hundreds (if not thousands) of possible choices you are aware of that will ultimately arise. Say you picked a movie like Star Wars. Well, why didn't you pick one of the other movies you had been thinking about? Why did you choose Star Wars over Die Hard or Terminator? Why didn't you choose another movie that your are aware exists, like Jurassic Park or Independence Day, but that didn't happen to arise in your thoughts?
I picked Star Wars, because that is what I picked. I have the free will to choose how I want to answer your question, but that does not mean I can, or have to justify my choice. There does not have to be a reason why I picked Star Wars.
Quote:If you do not know what your brain is going to do next, you are not in control of your brain. The same reasoning applies to a soul if one wishes to posit one.

Then we have different ideas of what constitutes freewill. I make the assertion that since you apparently do not control the things that influence your decisions and choices (your genes, environmental influences, chemical reactions, brain structure), you lack the true freedom of will or choice. You seem to just want to label as 'freewill' your illusion of self containment and self control; it is an arbitrary demarcation in the line of causality in a deterministic universe. You are influenced by things beyond your control, and these influence your brain and your decisions and everything else you perceive as your 'freewill'; but at base you don't control those influences.

Are you responsible for your parents and the genes they gave you? Are you responsible for the structure of your brain? Are you responsible for the millions of environmental influences around you that will affect your subconscious, and thus your decisions, thoughts, and will?

Even your car analogy bring into stark contrast your definition of freewill. You cannot make the car fly, or do other than what the car was built to do. If your car breaks down because of a fault in the engineering, are you responsible for that? If your car radio stops working, can you fix it simply by desiring (willing it) to be fixed? Do you directly control the electrical impulses from your battery to the spark plugs that are crucial in your engine operating? If another car crashes into yours while it's parked, were you responsible for that as well? According to your definition of freewill, you should be.

Once again, if you did not know why you chose Star Wars, why it arose and thousands of other movies did not, then you're not in control of what your brain will do next or why it does what it does. Because you still thought of Star Wars because you were asked about it, you where influenced by an outside factor. Guess what, you were inadvertently controlled again! Big Grin

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-09-2013, 03:11 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(23-09-2013 12:13 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  
(23-09-2013 11:32 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No, you don't control them, any more than you can control the beating of your heart or the release of your hormones or adrenaline. Your thoughts, consciousness, memories, and experiences can have an effect on those neurons, but even then you cannot be sure of what affect and to what extent. Are you making red blood cells right now? Your body is. Are you responsible for the decision to do this? I don't think so, and if your body stopped doing this, you would be a victim of biology and not of your own freewill.
With free will, we do not mean COMPLETE control. I do not claim that I can make my neurons do whatever I want. But I do control them to a large extent. If I think of a tree, I force my neurons to act consistently with the thought of a tree.

If you drive a car, you do not control every moving part in the car. You are not even aware of all the parts that move in your car. Yet, the car does what you want it to do. You are IN CONTROL of your car.

So think of your body as a car. You cannot control each part individually, but as a whole, it acts as you want it to (to a large extent, that is).
Quote:I could ask you what your favorite videogame, or movie, or book is. I would ask you this and then after second, thoughts will just start to arise out of your subconscious. You don't have control over whichever of the hundreds (if not thousands) of possible choices you are aware of that will ultimately arise. Say you picked a movie like Star Wars. Well, why didn't you pick one of the other movies you had been thinking about? Why did you choose Star Wars over Die Hard or Terminator? Why didn't you choose another movie that your are aware exists, like Jurassic Park or Independence Day, but that didn't happen to arise in your thoughts?
I picked Star Wars, because that is what I picked. I have the free will to choose how I want to answer your question, but that does not mean I can, or have to justify my choice. There does not have to be a reason why I picked Star Wars.
Quote:If you do not know what your brain is going to do next, you are not in control of your brain. The same reasoning applies to a soul if one wishes to posit one.

We should all know we don't have complete control. We're saying there is no control. Your mistake is thinking you brought about the experience of picturing a tree in your minds eye. How do you know in reality the conditions of the prior moments didn't just lead to the realization of the event? Either it was predestined and it was inevitable, or quantum fuzziness added a touch of 'randomness'and it was selected for you from a list of possible futures. Neither of which makes sense with a concept of the self that is in control.

it's hard to argue against free will. Some people are going to latch onto it as hard, or harder, than some people cling to religious beliefs. It's a convincing illusion, hence the heated debates on the topic, but if you meditate and pay close attention to when you make some decisions you should realize free will is a santa-like belief just like Jesus.

After and perhaps even during reading this your going to start formulating a rebuttal in your head. Before the ideas come rushing in you won't have anything to say. The brain is processing. It's trying to defend a belief, it's what it prefers to do over changing. Take in the experience.

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-09-2013, 03:21 AM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2013 03:24 AM by absols.)
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
that bc u reject true freedom from what u know urself will, being fake pretense from what u can enjoy getting from knowing that else existence so perspectives are always a present thing

freedom by definition is what is not related to anything, any conscious any awareness true state is by definition free

noone is that conscious or awareness out of self that being reality life

whoever say a word against free wills is a criminal in depth
knowing perfectly how everything is by stepping on the only fact known, freedom of any as the only form of existing thing

freedom is the only way of true existence, while existence moron cant b untrue

bc then u r stealing the concept of existing from truth showing that how u know that truth exist, and by that fact alone of urself mean u gonna b burried alive of such impossible contradiction u created to b of
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-09-2013, 03:35 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(24-09-2013 03:21 AM)absols Wrote:  that bc u reject true freedom from what u know urself will, being fake pretense from what u can enjoy getting from knowing that else existence so perspectives are always a present thing

freedom by definition is what is not related to anything, any conscious any awareness true state is by definition free

noone is that conscious or awareness out of self that being reality life

whoever say a word against free wills is a criminal in depth
knowing perfectly how everything is by stepping on the only fact known, freedom of any as the only form of existing thing

freedom is the only way of true existence, while existence moron cant b untrue

bc then u r stealing the concept of existing from truth showing that how u know that truth exist, and by that fact alone of urself mean u gonna b burried alive of such impossible contradiction u created to b of

[Image: my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic-.gif]

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-09-2013, 04:44 AM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2013 04:48 AM by absols.)
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
fuck u and the christ piece of shit, as if it got any power but to possess shit heads like u to pretend being above right ones

since who are right are what point the reference of true superiority

u wont get anything of ur shit means at all, u gonna only lose all ur powers
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-09-2013, 04:50 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(24-09-2013 04:44 AM)absols Wrote:  fuck u and the christ piece of shit, as if it got any power but to possess shit heads like u to pretend being above right ones

since who are right are what point the reference of true superiority

u wont get anything of ur shit means at all, u gonna only lose all ur powers

Translation:


[Image: I_Can_Typing.gif]

More Min Gee Ziss
[Image: giphy.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TSG's post
24-09-2013, 05:23 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
it is a lie i dont type fast

fuck u and ur dirty means with ur shit powers knowing very well the exclusive thing it does, shit literally

forcing a very brillant person to appear shit in all ways

what is struggling with powers on him is way more slow then any geniune self move, in all perspective of struggle end to self means
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: