What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
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20-11-2014, 12:38 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
Most of the time, I hear it used as an escape clause.
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20-11-2014, 07:39 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(19-11-2014 11:44 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Free will is nothing more then our brains ability to make choices which we do not have a choice as to whether or not we have it or not.

Free will essentially is nothing more than our ability to interact with our enviornment. Every living thing that floats around and can make a conscious choice which is pretty much anything that has a brain, has free will.

That's it.

Actually "that's not it", if, as been suggested by recent experiments, the decision is made BEFORE we are conscious of it.
http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/bra...you-decide
http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-eviden...-free-will
http://www.carterphipps.com/2012/05/02/i...-eagleman/
http://www.science20.com/countering_tack...nies-83621

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-11-2014, 07:49 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-11-2014 07:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 11:44 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Free will is nothing more then our brains ability to make choices which we do not have a choice as to whether or not we have it or not.

Free will essentially is nothing more than our ability to interact with our enviornment. Every living thing that floats around and can make a conscious choice which is pretty much anything that has a brain, has free will.

That's it.

Actually "that's not it", if, as been suggested by recent experiments, the decision is made BEFORE we are conscious of it.
http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/bra...you-decide
http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-eviden...-free-will
http://www.carterphipps.com/2012/05/02/i...-eagleman/
http://www.science20.com/countering_tack...nies-83621

There are various levels of 'will' or 'choice'. While immediate actions seem to occur before we are conscious of them, there are longer term choices we make.

We deliberate about what to have for dinner, what university to go to, how much to invest or save, and so on. There is no evidentiary support for these not being 'free will' in the common sense.
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20-11-2014, 08:18 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-11-2014 07:49 AM)Machias Wrote:  
(20-11-2014 07:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Actually "that's not it", if, as been suggested by recent experiments, the decision is made BEFORE we are conscious of it.
http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/bra...you-decide
http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-eviden...-free-will
http://www.carterphipps.com/2012/05/02/i...-eagleman/
http://www.science20.com/countering_tack...nies-83621

There are various levels of 'will' or 'choice'. While immediate actions seem to occur before we are conscious of them, there are longer term choices we make.

We deliberate about what to have for dinner, what university to go to, how much to invest or save, and so on. There is no evidentiary support for these not being 'free will' in the common sense.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Define "deliberate".
There is no "boundary" between long term and short term decisions, (and if you have evidence there is, let's see it).
Long term decisions are a series of short term ones. If you have another model, let's hear about it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-11-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
This may be a bit disconnected. I haven't read through the thread recently (did awhile back before it got resurrected), but I was about to create a post about free will and decided it may as well fit into this one that is already going.

The theist concept of free will is used as the justification for all that is bad - evil, illness, disease, disabilities, natural disasters, etc. It is said that these came about because of Adam and Eve's sin and that God allowed and allows it so as not to interfere with free will.

But the problem I have with that is free will is not enough. Take Adam and Eve, for example. God gave them free will and then abandoned them to use it as they saw fit. But they had no idea about the consequences of using their free will to disobey God's command regarding the apple. I would not allow a toddler to stand next to a hot stove without, at a minimum, communicating to the child that they will be burned and seriously hurt if they touch the stove. Simply leaving the child alone next to the stove without even informing the child about the dangers (let alone that, even then, the child shouldn't be left alone), would be completely negligent. But that is what God supposedly did. He failed to give Adam and Eve informed free will.

Theists view free will as the ultimate gift from God. It's the trump card that answers just about anything that otherwise might make God look like a monster. Yet, they miss that free will is useless, even dangerous or deadly, in many cases without some education or supervision before being allowed to wield it.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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20-11-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-11-2014 08:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-11-2014 07:49 AM)Machias Wrote:  There are various levels of 'will' or 'choice'. While immediate actions seem to occur before we are conscious of them, there are longer term choices we make.

We deliberate about what to have for dinner, what university to go to, how much to invest or save, and so on. There is no evidentiary support for these not being 'free will' in the common sense.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Define "deliberate".
There is no "boundary" between long term and short term decisions, (and if you have evidence there is, let's see it).
Long term decisions are a series of short term ones. If you have another model, let's hear about it.

Also, I would like to point out that if Long term decision making and short term decision making are different, scientists would be able to test that. Making a claim that is not supported by evidence is not helping a logical argument.

Why are long-term and short term decisions different? Is it just the time? How does that change things?

Free will is a definition game. They way each one of us defines it judges whether it is real or not. Most people I have encountered define it as an ability we have to CONSCIOUSLY choose. The word consciously being the qualifier. If it isn't there, and we take our subconscious as a part of us, then we do have a process by which WE choose.

Our consciousness, that we know of, merely follows along with the subconscious decisions we make.

Here is an excellent starting point for some further research: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscie..._free_will

Regardless of how we define Free Will, it is a known fact that it can be and has been infringed upon. A rape victims free will was infringed upon, surely his or her will is not to be violated. As much as I want to fly, and I try to will myself, I can not. The laws of reality do not allow me to fulfill my will. Our will in shackled to the environment around us.

So, saying that God can't infringe upon our free will to stop evil is ridiculous. Our will is infringed on everyday.

The inability to do evil is not going to affect my free choice in other manners. Not all choices are between good and evil. Wether I want chicken tenders or a cheeseburger for lunch today is not a matter of good and evil, no matter what McDonald's tries to tell me.

Just my two cents.

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20-11-2014, 05:33 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-11-2014 12:37 PM)Impulse Wrote:  This may be a bit disconnected. I haven't read through the thread recently (did awhile back before it got resurrected), but I was about to create a post about free will and decided it may as well fit into this one that is already going.

The theist concept of free will is used as the justification for all that is bad - evil, illness, disease, disabilities, natural disasters, etc. It is said that these came about because of Adam and Eve's sin and that God allowed and allows it so as not to interfere with free will.

But the problem I have with that is free will is not enough. Take Adam and Eve, for example. God gave them free will and then abandoned them to use it as they saw fit. But they had no idea about the consequences of using their free will to disobey God's command regarding the apple. I would not allow a toddler to stand next to a hot stove without, at a minimum, communicating to the child that they will be burned and seriously hurt if they touch the stove. Simply leaving the child alone next to the stove without even informing the child about the dangers (let alone that, even then, the child shouldn't be left alone), would be completely negligent. But that is what God supposedly did. He failed to give Adam and Eve informed free will.

Theists view free will as the ultimate gift from God. It's the trump card that answers just about anything that otherwise might make God look like a monster. Yet, they miss that free will is useless, even dangerous or deadly, in many cases without some education or supervision before being allowed to wield it.

The very fact that today we know the effects of our choices makes our will even less "free" than it would have been in the Adam and Eve story.

Of course we also can't forget that if the story were true, god would have to have created the tree as well as create the talking snake to talk them into eating the fruit. Obviously it was a set up.

My current project is explaining why many things in this world are irrelevant to me.
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20-11-2014, 09:03 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-11-2014 07:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-11-2014 11:44 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  Free will is nothing more then our brains ability to make choices which we do not have a choice as to whether or not we have it or not.

Free will essentially is nothing more than our ability to interact with our enviornment. Every living thing that floats around and can make a conscious choice which is pretty much anything that has a brain, has free will.

That's it.

Actually "that's not it", if, as been suggested by recent experiments, the decision is made BEFORE we are conscious of it.
http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/bra...you-decide
http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-eviden...-free-will
http://www.carterphipps.com/2012/05/02/i...-eagleman/
http://www.science20.com/countering_tack...nies-83621


I will take a look at those later.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
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21-11-2014, 08:00 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(20-11-2014 08:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(20-11-2014 07:49 AM)Machias Wrote:  There are various levels of 'will' or 'choice'. While immediate actions seem to occur before we are conscious of them, there are longer term choices we make.

We deliberate about what to have for dinner, what university to go to, how much to invest or save, and so on. There is no evidentiary support for these not being 'free will' in the common sense.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Define "deliberate".
There is no "boundary" between long term and short term decisions, (and if you have evidence there is, let's see it).
Long term decisions are a series of short term ones. If you have another model, let's hear about it.

Yabut, the evidence shows that there may - in some circumstances - be action prior to cognition. It doesn't show more than that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-11-2014, 08:03 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(21-11-2014 08:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-11-2014 08:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Define "deliberate".
There is no "boundary" between long term and short term decisions, (and if you have evidence there is, let's see it).
Long term decisions are a series of short term ones. If you have another model, let's hear about it.

Yabut, the evidence shows that there may - in some circumstances - be action prior to cognition. It doesn't show more than that.

There are no examples where there is "action" (in the brain) prior to cognition.
The entire concept of "Free Will" is predicated on the (false) notion that one can be, and is "fully aware" of all the elements that go into a decision AT THE TIME is its made. That has been debunked.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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