What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
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28-11-2014, 01:50 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(28-11-2014 12:14 PM)666wannabe Wrote:  For thinking people, what is generally referred to as "will" is actually "judgement". We base our beliefs and actions upon judgement of evidence (in the case of beliefs) and judgements of what is the best course of action to take (in the case of actions), not upon our "will" (free, or otherwise). The only actions that are based upon "free will" are "impulses". True, an activity might begin as the "desire" or "will" to engage in the activity, but then, it is weighed in our thoughts as to its advisability or rationality. "Impulse" on the other hand, is activity that is not weighed as to its advisability or rationality.

The same is true of beliefs. Thinking people examine a potential belief, critically, before accepting it as true--or false. Non-thinking people base their beliefs on their "will to believe", generally accepting the idea expressed in Hebrews 1:11 "faith is the evidence of things not seen". Incidentally, accepting this passage as valid could lead one to conclude that wanting to believe that your significant other is being faithful to you is better evidence than the love letter from his girlfriend that you found in his pocket.

Free Will may exist, but it is not a very good thing upon which to base one's beliefs or actions.

Free Will isn't judgement ; Free Will is more decision-making based on our motives and is played out thru our actions, emotions, etc... Will can be based on impulse or it can be carefully layed out before the action is taken , as in pre-meditated Murder.

Thinking, logical, People base their belief on something/Someone grounded in supportive evidence(s) ; the Hebrews passage on Faith is dealing with the evidence we see of a Creator who isn't physical --- there are lots of times when we see the evidence of a Creator yet not having seen the Person (ie: Your used Home, car, guitar, electricity, Mt. Rushmore faces , et al) . Illogical People base their belief on something / a philosophy even when it is incredulous to do so (ie: our invisible non material entiites of Will, abstract thinking, love, reason, etc.. having derived from the atoms of materialism coming about naturally by accident because of time) .
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28-11-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(28-11-2014 11:37 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  He especially allows freewill choice for Man to choose to draw nearer to himself or to become further enthralled with Self
A decent parent (IMHO) is one that builds up their offspring to believe in themselves, to be confident and autonomous, to be able to make decisions, to be able to learn from mistakes, to be their own person. Supporting, not judging, to be proud of the individualism and independence of their children.

As a parent myself, I love it when my daughter says no, and does her own thing, she makes me very proud.

Religious organisations on the other hand tear down the individualism and selfworth-self confidence of their people. They want self-doubters to become dependent on the church. To this ends they promote the idea that the "self" or "selfishness" is a bad thing.
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28-11-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(28-11-2014 01:50 PM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 12:14 PM)666wannabe Wrote:  For thinking people, what is generally referred to as "will" is actually "judgement". We base our beliefs and actions upon judgement of evidence (in the case of beliefs) and judgements of what is the best course of action to take (in the case of actions), not upon our "will" (free, or otherwise). The only actions that are based upon "free will" are "impulses". True, an activity might begin as the "desire" or "will" to engage in the activity, but then, it is weighed in our thoughts as to its advisability or rationality. "Impulse" on the other hand, is activity that is not weighed as to its advisability or rationality.

The same is true of beliefs. Thinking people examine a potential belief, critically, before accepting it as true--or false. Non-thinking people base their beliefs on their "will to believe", generally accepting the idea expressed in Hebrews 1:11 "faith is the evidence of things not seen". Incidentally, accepting this passage as valid could lead one to conclude that wanting to believe that your significant other is being faithful to you is better evidence than the love letter from his girlfriend that you found in his pocket.

Free Will may exist, but it is not a very good thing upon which to base one's beliefs or actions.

Free Will isn't judgement ; Free Will is more decision-making based on our motives and is played out thru our actions, emotions, etc... Will can be based on impulse or it can be carefully layed out before the action is taken , as in pre-meditated Murder.

Thinking, logical, People base their belief on something/Someone grounded in supportive evidence(s) ; the Hebrews passage on Faith is dealing with the evidence we see of a Creator who isn't physical --- there are lots of times when we see the evidence of a Creator yet not having seen the Person (ie: Your used Home, car, guitar, electricity, Mt. Rushmore faces , et al) . Illogical People base their belief on something / a philosophy even when it is incredulous to do so (ie: our invisible non material entiites of Will, abstract thinking, love, reason, etc.. having derived from the atoms of materialism coming about naturally by accident because of time) .

Sorry Ignorant Troll. Science has debunked that garbage.

http://exploringthemind.com/the-mind/bra...you-decide

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-11-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(28-11-2014 01:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 11:37 AM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  He especially allows freewill choice for Man to choose to draw nearer to himself or to become further enthralled with Self
A decent parent (IMHO) is one that builds up their offspring to believe in themselves, to be confident and autonomous, to be able to make decisions, to be able to learn from mistakes, to be their own person. Supporting, not judging, to be proud of the individualism and independence of their children.

As a parent myself, I love it when my daughter says no, and does her own thing, she makes me very proud.

Religious organisations on the other hand tear down the individualism and selfworth-self confidence of their people. They want self-doubters to become dependent on the church. To this ends they promote the idea that the "self" or "selfishness" is a bad thing.

In order---------

1. Good Parents do all of which you listed and in addition, they validate the dignity and intrinsic worth that they come with because they were made in the image of the Creator and not from an accidental worthless piece of Pond Scum that burped forth from a sea of dead chemicals . Good Parents teach their children that they are special not because they get the applause of people , Teachers, Peers but because WHO they are as a CHild of the Most High God.

2. Do you love it when your Daughter says 'no' to you regarding Sexual Morality because of her Individuality ?

3. Religious Organizations may or may not fail in a particular endeavor ; however, Christ Followers who have a genuine personal relationship with their Creator try to march to the same drumbeat as the Creator to show others that they are infinitely special, of instrinsic value, and loved by the Creator so much that The Creator chose to enter time , space, and humanity to purchase their redemption by dying for their many accumulated sins . Christ Followers try to get people who have bought into the dangerous and destructive philosophies of Humanism that brings harm to Oneself and Others thru progressive Narcissism .

3.a. The Religious Organizations that do try to trap people into their mold of Religion are indeed wrong and should be exposed , which I do . They are wrong for demanding people become buy into their cult web and they are wrong because it never was about following or becoming a Member of a Religious affiliation ; rather, it was all about a personal relationship with Christ based on what he did and not what we can do to earn our way into his good graces. He provided all the grace we need thru his sacrifice and so it becomes a free undeserved Gift of God which we just simply receive . Out of that relationship gets birthed a new Person inwardly coupled with a desire to live righteously before Men and God and to pattern Ones life in service to God and Others. Only then, does real fulfillment in life take root.
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28-11-2014, 03:16 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(28-11-2014 02:36 PM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  
(28-11-2014 01:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  A decent parent (IMHO) is one that builds up their offspring to believe in themselves, to be confident and autonomous, to be able to make decisions, to be able to learn from mistakes, to be their own person. Supporting, not judging, to be proud of the individualism and independence of their children.

As a parent myself, I love it when my daughter says no, and does her own thing, she makes me very proud.

Religious organisations on the other hand tear down the individualism and selfworth-self confidence of their people. They want self-doubters to become dependent on the church. To this ends they promote the idea that the "self" or "selfishness" is a bad thing.

In order---------

1. Good Parents do all of which you listed and in addition, they validate the dignity and intrinsic worth that they come with because they were made in the image of the Creator and not from an accidental worthless piece of Pond Scum that burped forth from a sea of dead chemicals . Good Parents teach their children that they are special not because they get the applause of people , Teachers, Peers but because WHO they are as a CHild of the Most High God.

2. Do you love it when your Daughter says 'no' to you regarding Sexual Morality because of her Individuality ?

3. Religious Organizations may or may not fail in a particular endeavor ; however, Christ Followers who have a genuine personal relationship with their Creator try to march to the same drumbeat as the Creator to show others that they are infinitely special, of instrinsic value, and loved by the Creator so much that The Creator chose to enter time , space, and humanity to purchase their redemption by dying for their many accumulated sins . Christ Followers try to get people who have bought into the dangerous and destructive philosophies of Humanism that brings harm to Oneself and Others thru progressive Narcissism .

3.a. The Religious Organizations that do try to trap people into their mold of Religion are indeed wrong and should be exposed , which I do . They are wrong for demanding people become buy into their cult web and they are wrong because it never was about following or becoming a Member of a Religious affiliation ; rather, it was all about a personal relationship with Christ based on what he did and not what we can do to earn our way into his good graces. He provided all the grace we need thru his sacrifice and so it becomes a free undeserved Gift of God which we just simply receive . Out of that relationship gets birthed a new Person inwardly coupled with a desire to live righteously before Men and God and to pattern Ones life in service to God and Others. Only then, does real fulfillment in life take root.

Wrong again. Humans have dignity not because of some imaginary god, but because they are human. The United States of America is a signatory to the UN Charter on Human Rights. We have dignity not because of some ancient angry pissed-off god (Yahweh), but because we are human.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-11-2014, 06:06 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(28-11-2014 02:36 PM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  1. Good Parents do all of which you listed and in addition, they validate the dignity and intrinsic worth that they come with because they were made in the image of the Creator and not from an accidental worthless piece of Pond Scum that burped forth from a sea of dead chemicals .
Let's say you learned that there is no god, that we did indeed evolve (as the mountains of evidence clearly show that we did).
Would you then cease to be a decent parent?

(28-11-2014 02:36 PM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  Good Parents teach their children that they are special not because they get the applause of people , Teachers, Peers but because WHO they are as a CHild of the Most High God.
IMHO decent parents teach their children to think for themselves, to make their own decisions. Not to try an emulate someone else (such as Jesus), not to obey someone else (such as a god or what a religious leader tells you that god wants you to do)


(28-11-2014 02:36 PM)Im a humble little Theist Wrote:  2. Do you love it when your Daughter says 'no' to you regarding Sexual Morality because of her Individuality ?
I have no beliefs in sexual morality.
My daughter's sexuality is her business, her sexual activities are her choice, not mine.
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16-12-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
http://healthland.time.com/2012/09/04/ma...n-decides/

I can't find the study I was hearing about concerning the result of "distractions" and their outcomes on the decision. I think it showed that people are more likely to eat candy over vegetables if, when they walk into the study environment, they are presented with distractions, or not. The non-distracted participants were more likely to make the healthy choice.

Just thought that was interesting. Free will. Bah.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-12-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(16-12-2014 10:20 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://healthland.time.com/2012/09/04/ma...n-decides/

I can't find the study I was hearing about concerning the result of "distractions" and their outcomes on the decision. I think it showed that people are more likely to eat candy over vegetables if, when they walk into the study environment, they are presented with distractions, or not. The non-distracted participants were more likely to make the healthy choice.

Just thought that was interesting. Free will. Bah.

Bucky, so I can understand your point of view better, I will agree with it and play devil's advocate. If we have no free will can we empty our prisons and law courts today? Why or why not?

I know your reasoning will vary from, say, KC's reasoning on determinism and the need to punish wrong choices, even though you say those choices are illusory. What are your thoughts here?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-12-2014, 02:41 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
I guess I'll play too.

(16-12-2014 02:22 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Bucky, so I can understand your point of view better, I will agree with it and play devil's advocate. If we have no free will can we empty our prisons and law courts today? Why or why not?

I know your reasoning will vary from, say, KC's reasoning on determinism and the need to punish wrong choices, even though you say those choices are illusory. What are your thoughts here?

The answer is no. No you cannot empty our prisons and law courts. No one has the authority to do that except God. That free will will does not exist.

I'll delve further into it if the curiosity in regards to this conversation is genuine.

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16-12-2014, 02:46 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
Nickname for the movie Free Willy.

Next questing.

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