What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-12-2014, 03:46 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(16-12-2014 02:41 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I guess I'll play too.

(16-12-2014 02:22 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Bucky, so I can understand your point of view better, I will agree with it and play devil's advocate. If we have no free will can we empty our prisons and law courts today? Why or why not?

I know your reasoning will vary from, say, KC's reasoning on determinism and the need to punish wrong choices, even though you say those choices are illusory. What are your thoughts here?

The answer is no. No you cannot empty our prisons and law courts. No one has the authority to do that except God. That free will will does not exist.

I'll delve further into it if the curiosity in regards to this conversation is genuine.

And I asked Bucky specifically citing that I knew, KC, that your reasoning would be different just as mine would be different from his, too. Bucky doesn't have "God made government and courts" and I'd love to hear from him why we need law courts despite our behavior being beyond the power of choice or control. I'm inviting Bucky to defend the proposition "We must punish people with incarceration and other punishments despite the fact that they are innocent regarding their behavior" or however else he'd care to rephrase.

Thanks![/i]

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-12-2014, 03:53 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
I'll let Dr. David Eagleman answer for me.
















Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-12-2014, 05:41 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
Isn't God supposed to be omniscient? If he knows what's going to happen to us, then how do we have free will?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(16-12-2014 03:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I'll let Dr. David Eagleman answer for me.
















On the basis that I both respect your opinions and do not currently have three hours to watch these videos (the sum total of their run times) perhaps you'd like to make a few bullet points instead for me? I appreciate it.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2014, 03:42 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(16-12-2014 05:41 PM)Bear100 Wrote:  Isn't God supposed to be omniscient? If he knows what's going to happen to us, then how do we have free will?

From that point of view we don't. You cannot change your destiny; it existed before you and was created by god (god created everything, remember?). To say otherwise is to suggest that god is somehow not the master of his creation. Thus, you're simply an actor following a script.

I find the neuroscience stuff a lot more interesting. I often wonder how much subconscious preprocessing happens before a "decision" is made...

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2014, 03:48 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(17-12-2014 03:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 03:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I'll let Dr. David Eagleman answer for me.
















On the basis that I both respect your opinions and do not currently have three hours to watch these videos (the sum total of their run times) perhaps you'd like to make a few bullet points instead for me? I appreciate it.

Then watch the first one. It's two minutes, or one of the 10 minute ones.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-12-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(17-12-2014 03:48 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 03:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  On the basis that I both respect your opinions and do not currently have three hours to watch these videos (the sum total of their run times) perhaps you'd like to make a few bullet points instead for me? I appreciate it.

Then watch the first one. It's two minutes, or one of the 10 minute ones.

There is some fascinating stuff there! Thanks for sharing it. The implications are huge, yes.

Did you see the page at http://www.carterphipps.com/2012/05/02/i...-eagleman/ where it says, however, that:

"...Eagleman openly played Devil’s advocate for a time, provoking a healthy debate, but when it finally came down to it, he more or less agreed that the evidence does not support the extreme conclusion that many of his scientific colleagues leap to embrace. True to his “possibillian” identity, he suggested that we know too little to jump to conclusions about the question of free will and choice..."?

What are your comments on Eagleman's remarks about free will and determinism?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-01-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
Dennett's interesting take on free will based on his concept of an "intentional stance".

The truth about free will: Does it actually exist?

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
02-01-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(22-12-2014 01:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 03:48 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Then watch the first one. It's two minutes, or one of the 10 minute ones.

There is some fascinating stuff there! Thanks for sharing it. The implications are huge, yes.

Did you see the page at http://www.carterphipps.com/2012/05/02/i...-eagleman/ where it says, however, that:

"...Eagleman openly played Devil’s advocate for a time, provoking a healthy debate, but when it finally came down to it, he more or less agreed that the evidence does not support the extreme conclusion that many of his scientific colleagues leap to embrace. True to his “possibillian” identity, he suggested that we know too little to jump to conclusions about the question of free will and choice..."?

What are your comments on Eagleman's remarks about free will and determinism?

I don't recall that his "Possibilian" identity was ever raised in the context of his analysis of decision making. The term "Free Will" is a hold-over from Medieval Philosophy and Moral Theology. It's basically meaningless. In Moral Theology an act, to be sinful, has to be "freely chosen", which includes ALL the elements being in consciousness, so a "properly formed conscience" can weigh them, and THEN a choice is made to go down a certain path. It has been demonstrated by science that never happens. So if "free will" is now to be made relevant again as a term, it's assumptions have to be spelled out.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-01-2015, 02:18 PM
RE: What, Exactly, is "Free Will?"
(02-01-2015 02:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-12-2014 01:45 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There is some fascinating stuff there! Thanks for sharing it. The implications are huge, yes.

Did you see the page at http://www.carterphipps.com/2012/05/02/i...-eagleman/ where it says, however, that:

"...Eagleman openly played Devil’s advocate for a time, provoking a healthy debate, but when it finally came down to it, he more or less agreed that the evidence does not support the extreme conclusion that many of his scientific colleagues leap to embrace. True to his “possibillian” identity, he suggested that we know too little to jump to conclusions about the question of free will and choice..."?

What are your comments on Eagleman's remarks about free will and determinism?

I don't recall that his "Possibilian" identity was ever raised in the context of his analysis of decision making. The term "Free Will" is a hold-over from Medieval Philosophy and Moral Theology. It's basically meaningless. In Moral Theology an act, to be sinful, has to be "freely chosen", which includes ALL the elements being in consciousness, so a "properly formed conscience" can weigh them, and THEN a choice is made to go down a certain path. It has been demonstrated by science that never happens. So if "free will" is now to be made relevant again as a term, it's assumptions have to be spelled out.

I would respond that free will wasn't "invented" in recent millennia but rather redefined in the light of Christian thinkers discussing deterministic theology and philosophy. While I concede that many people are beyond some levels of help for certain behaviors and that addictions and compulsions are real, the Bible states that people are responsible for their moral choices and will be judged, and Christians whether they adhere to free will or determinism/predestination agree on this point.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: